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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Open source speaker project - Part II
Open source speaker project - Part II
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View Poll Results: Design Goal
Classic -Amp Friendly- Hi Sensitivity (92db+), Higher Bass Ext (f3 40-45Hz), Cabinet Size 60-80 18 17.82%
Classic -Bass Friendly- Deep Bass (f3 35-40Hz), Lower Sensitivity (88db+), Cabinet Size 80-110 10 9.90%
Classic XL -Amp and Bass Friendly- Hi Sensitivity (92db+), Deep Bass (f3 35-40Hz), Cabinet size 100+ 12 11.88%
Tower -Amp Friendly- Hi Sensitivity (92db+), Higher Bass Ext (f3 40-45Hz), Cabinet Size 60-80 13 12.87%
Tower -Bass Friendly- Deep Bass (f3 35-40Hz), Lower Sensitivity (88db+) , Cabinet Size 80-110 21 20.79%
Tower XL -Amp and Bass Friendly- Hi Sensitivity (92db+), Deep Bass (f3 35-40Hz), Cabinet size 100+ 27 26.73%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th September 2018, 11:38 PM   #11
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Default what if ?

what if we can have a very high sensitivity driver in a smallish size cabinet with deep bass ?
BMS - 12N630
a very quick n dirty calculation shows very promising:
FB=0.39(FS/QTS)=0.39(28.6/0.33)=33.8Hz, with a small VAS of 85.5 and sensitivity of 96db(1w/1m).
another quick n dirty simulation in speaker builder pro shows the same results, w Fb of 33.8 in a 49.5 liter ported cab :
Open source speaker project - Part II-bms-12n630-sim-jpg
Troel used it in a ~63 liter cab in his fusion speaker. I m not saying to copy his design but we can have a similar cabinet which is floor standing monkey boxish/towerish design ! am I missing something here or this really can solve all above issues w no sacrifices ?
Open source speaker project - Part II-fusion-2-jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BMS - 12N630 sim.JPG (319.2 KB, 339 views)
File Type: jpg BMS - 12N630.JPG (334.4 KB, 314 views)
File Type: jpg fusion-2.jpg (147.5 KB, 342 views)
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:07 AM   #12
mbrennwa is offline mbrennwa  Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatto View Post
what if we can have a very high sensitivity driver in a smallish size cabinet with deep bass ?
That would be cool. But we can't because phyisics do not allow it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatto View Post
BMS - 12N630
a very quick n dirty calculation shows very promising:
FB=0.39(FS/QTS)=0.39(28.6/0.33)=33.8Hz, with a small VAS of 85.5 and sensitivity of 96db(1w/1m).
That sensitivity number is in the datasheet, but I honestly don't know what that is supposed to tell us. Max. sensitivity somewhere in the midrange? The bass sensitivity you get from the Thielle-Small parameters speaks a different language. Just take a look at Troels bass response simulations and you'll see that real-world efficiency in a real-world box is closer to 84 dB (1m,2.83V) into free space.

But yes, the 12N630 is a nice driver.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:31 AM   #13
Qts is offline Qts
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How about 12S330 version of it?
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:12 PM   #14
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrennwa View Post
That would be cool. But we can't because phyisics do not allow it.



That sensitivity number is in the datasheet, but I honestly don't know what that is supposed to tell us. Max. sensitivity somewhere in the midrange? The bass sensitivity you get from the Thielle-Small parameters speaks a different language. Just take a look at Troels bass response simulations and you'll see that real-world efficiency in a real-world box is closer to 84 dB (1m,2.83V) into free space.

But yes, the 12N630 is a nice driver.
You are right, didn't read Troel's whole documentation, saw the numbers but assumed he lost some of the sensitivity due to ports facing backward to control directivity. Troel calculated to get around 89 dB/2.8V/1 meter in his which i can't ask for any better in a passive system . thanks for clearing that out

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Originally Posted by Qts View Post
How about 12S330 version of it?
this has lower QTS of 0.24 which will bring fb to ~46Hz
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Last edited by Aatto; 9th September 2018 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:03 PM   #15
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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Aatto,

I find the same result, with the 12N630 in a basreflex of 50 - 55 L, F3 = 34Hz.

Regarding the sensitivity, in half space and calculated with TSP the sensitivity at 1m, 2.83Vrms is 90.7dB. That means, with the 12N630 you can make a flat SPL speaker in full space with a sensitivity equal to 84.7 dB maximum.
As Troels' Fusion is specified 89 - 90 dB, it cannot be a flat SPL speaker in full space.
I don't mind that it isn't flat, it is a design choice, but it has to be specified in a clear understandable way and IMO that is a SPL specification in full space.

To get the target of the XL tower you need minimum 2 of these 12N630 in parallel. It will become difficult to realize that XL with a driver set of 1000 $...

Anyway this BMS is an interesting driver.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:23 PM   #16
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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very interesting driver indeed even the larger size drivers from the same series doesn't perform like this one and based on your simulations I would say it is still a good option ( we can always go half space )

GF is out visiting family so I had some time to check some drivers in this beautiful rainy day

anyhow, looks like Kappa-15LFA and SOVEREIGN 15-600LF are interesting as well. SOVEREIGN has a quite large VAS tho.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kp.JPG (223.3 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg SOVEREIGN 15-600LF.JPG (99.7 KB, 25 views)
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:47 PM   #17
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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Originally Posted by Aatto View Post
looks like Kappa-15LFA and SOVEREIGN 15-600LF are interesting as well. SOVEREIGN has a quite large VAS tho.
Both drivers are intended to be used in a large cabinet. They have a large Vas and Qts and with these large volumes a high sensitivity.

The Kappa 15FLA in 160 L tuned at 39Hz, F3 = 39Hz. For a cabinet around 200 L, F3 = 35Hz. Sensitivity 91.4 dB full space.
The Sovereign 15-600LF in 225 L tuned at 37 Hz, F3 = 37Hz. Sensitivity is 92.3 dB full space.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:27 PM   #18
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Vancluysen View Post
Both drivers are intended to be used in a large cabinet. They have a large Vas and Qts and with these large volumes a high sensitivity.

The Kappa 15FLA in 160 L tuned at 39Hz, F3 = 39Hz. For a cabinet around 200 L, F3 = 35Hz. Sensitivity 91.4 dB full space.
The Sovereign 15-600LF in 225 L tuned at 37 Hz, F3 = 37Hz. Sensitivity is 92.3 dB full space.
yeah i noticed huge VAS, I ran it through simulation after I post them and i was like wtf, haha. a single driver, w flat full space SPL and low f3 is a tall order , still have a few days left on the poll tho.
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Old 10th September 2018, 02:52 AM   #19
mordikai is offline mordikai  United States
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I think what you'll find is those volumes in the poll were a little on the low side of what will be needed. No biggie it'll get worked out.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:28 AM   #20
KaffiMann is offline KaffiMann  Norway
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Mordikai:
Yes indeed. But "Cabinet size 100+" = Less than 200 liters, no? :-D
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