My brother has obtained a pair of Dave Berriman DBS6 bookshelf speakers. They use a proprietary 8" woofer and a Morel MDT30 tweeter. The design for these was originally published in Hifi News and Record Review. We have a scan of the article but it's unreadable, including the date of the magazine. It looks like February 1992 but could be anything really.
If anyone knows the issue these were published in, that would be very helpful. Also details of the crossover, as there a couple of strange things going on that look as though whoever built it originally wired it up incorrectly. Ultimately we will do some measurements and do a design from scratch but a good starting point would be useful.
Thanks for any info that anyone might have
If anyone knows the issue these were published in, that would be very helpful. Also details of the crossover, as there a couple of strange things going on that look as though whoever built it originally wired it up incorrectly. Ultimately we will do some measurements and do a design from scratch but a good starting point would be useful.
Thanks for any info that anyone might have
Belatedly... but I built a pair of DBS6 when published, February 1992. I still use them. They're good, untiiring, capable of decent imaging and nicely balanced sound. A little laid back, not forward or shouty at all. They reveal cable and amplifier quality. I've had them hooked up to a Bryston 4B and the bass is fabulous. However they reveal the grain and glare of the 4B too.
Something is not quite right around the upper mid, which I think is a result of asking too much of the woofer near the rather low crossover frequency of 2KHz. Berriman just used a single inductor on the woofer circuit. I think that was optimistic.
They should have aged well if not abused, since the inverted woofer surround is rot proof and crossover caps are polypropylene. You can still get repair kits for the MDT30, although I've not needed them.
The high pass section is 12dB/octave, with a Zobel filter to reduce what Berriman described as some 'treble thinness'. I think he may have overdone it a bit and knocked a bit of air out of the sound, and for the last 15 years I've been thinking about bypassing it, or increasing the resistor value to reduce the effect. However laziness has won, and being basically happy with the sound.
The crossover should be pretty simple and tidy unless it's been messed with. Unfortunately Berriman only published a schematic, not the component values, which were what came with the kit, prebuilt onto hardwired boards. The tweeter should be connected with inverted polarity.
I have a photocopy of the 2 HFN&RR articles from Feb and March 1992 and can scan to a PDF if it helps. Mail tonysleep-at-halftone-co-uk
Something is not quite right around the upper mid, which I think is a result of asking too much of the woofer near the rather low crossover frequency of 2KHz. Berriman just used a single inductor on the woofer circuit. I think that was optimistic.
They should have aged well if not abused, since the inverted woofer surround is rot proof and crossover caps are polypropylene. You can still get repair kits for the MDT30, although I've not needed them.
The high pass section is 12dB/octave, with a Zobel filter to reduce what Berriman described as some 'treble thinness'. I think he may have overdone it a bit and knocked a bit of air out of the sound, and for the last 15 years I've been thinking about bypassing it, or increasing the resistor value to reduce the effect. However laziness has won, and being basically happy with the sound.
The crossover should be pretty simple and tidy unless it's been messed with. Unfortunately Berriman only published a schematic, not the component values, which were what came with the kit, prebuilt onto hardwired boards. The tweeter should be connected with inverted polarity.
I have a photocopy of the 2 HFN&RR articles from Feb and March 1992 and can scan to a PDF if it helps. Mail tonysleep-at-halftone-co-uk
Thanks for the reply . My brother ended up emailing Dave Berriman and actually got a reply. From the email:
"You are correct that the sound of the standard crossover was slightly dull. The mic. I used then (before Clio) had rising treble and I over did the Zobel a little to compensate (should have trusted my ears more!). Once I started using Clio and the Clio Mic. I realised the error. Customers seemed very happy though!
I have looked through my old notes and measurements, and suggest you try 4.7 ohms for both the Zobel resistor (instead of 1 ohm) and 4.7 ohms for the series input resistor (instead of 6.8 ohms). This will lift the extreme top end, and the overall treble level.
If too much, increase one or both the resistors. If still too dull, try 3.3 ohms for one or both"
Thanks for the offer of the scans, I'll send an email.
. My brother ended up emailing Dave Berriman and actually got a reply. From the email:"You are correct that the sound of the standard crossover was slightly dull. The mic. I used then (before Clio) had rising treble and I over did the Zobel a little to compensate (should have trusted my ears more!). Once I started using Clio and the Clio Mic. I realised the error. Customers seemed very happy though!
I have looked through my old notes and measurements, and suggest you try 4.7 ohms for both the Zobel resistor (instead of 1 ohm) and 4.7 ohms for the series input resistor (instead of 6.8 ohms). This will lift the extreme top end, and the overall treble level.
If too much, increase one or both the resistors. If still too dull, try 3.3 ohms for one or both"
Thanks for the offer of the scans, I'll send an email.
Thanks for that! Intriguing that Berriman himself came to think the same about the Zobel network. Right, that's motivated me to experiment now, only 24 years late.. I shall buy some resistors!
I've received your mail and sent a PDF. If you don't get it let me know, it may be a little large to survive Hotmail, but I can Dropbox it.
I've received your mail and sent a PDF. If you don't get it let me know, it may be a little large to survive Hotmail, but I can Dropbox it.
Dave Berriman DSB6 info
Hi , everyone I'm new to the forum.
I stumbled on this site by chance in search for information on the DSB6 speakers I built in 1992 , I thought I had kept the plans safe but alas not to be found , if any one has a copy of the articles from HFN it would be very much appreiciated.
Thanks in advance
Hi , everyone I'm new to the forum.
I stumbled on this site by chance in search for information on the DSB6 speakers I built in 1992 , I thought I had kept the plans safe but alas not to be found , if any one has a copy of the articles from HFN it would be very much appreiciated.
Thanks in advance
Hello everyone,
I saw these posts here about the Dave Barriman DBS6, I found 2 of them in a friend's basement and would like to restore them. If anyone can provide me with information, including copies of the articles from Hifi News and Record Review, that would be great.
With best regards
Michael
I saw these posts here about the Dave Barriman DBS6, I found 2 of them in a friend's basement and would like to restore them. If anyone can provide me with information, including copies of the articles from Hifi News and Record Review, that would be great.
With best regards
Michael
I attach a PDF of the original articles, and am still using my DBS6's as recently as 10minutes ago
There is nothing to deteriorate with the crossovers, no electrolytic caps. The tweeter is the Morel MDT30 - still available as are the tweeter diaphragm service kits (the soft domes are easily pushed in by idiot children but can be sucked out with a gentle kiss Mine have always popped out fine with no damage. The woofer is (I think) a modified Vifa unit with no tendency to rot or crack surrounds, which are butyl rubber not foam. With a bit of luck, unless they have been grossly mistreated they should be fine, with refurb limited to cabinetry. Even the internal cabling was good quality VDH CS12.
There is nothing to deteriorate with the crossovers, no electrolytic caps. The tweeter is the Morel MDT30 - still available as are the tweeter diaphragm service kits (the soft domes are easily pushed in by idiot children but can be sucked out with a gentle kiss
Mine have always popped out fine with no damage. The woofer is (I think) a modified Vifa unit with no tendency to rot or crack surrounds, which are butyl rubber not foam. With a bit of luck, unless they have been grossly mistreated they should be fine, with refurb limited to cabinetry. Even the internal cabling was good quality VDH CS12.Hi Halftone,
thank you very much for the quick help, the circuit diagram of the crossover is super helpful, as I suspect that's where the problem is (a bit dull in the highest heights), otherwise I'm also listening via the DBS6 at the moment
In the article I could see that my uncle did everything exactly according to the construction plans, I had drawn the crossover myself, so the article is a great help. Thanks alot!
I just see that all cables have the color code as mentioned in the article) Very good replica
thank you very much for the quick help, the circuit diagram of the crossover is super helpful, as I suspect that's where the problem is (a bit dull in the highest heights), otherwise I'm also listening via the DBS6 at the moment
In the article I could see that my uncle did everything exactly according to the construction plans, I had drawn the crossover myself, so the article is a great help. Thanks alot!
I just see that all cables have the color code as mentioned in the article
) Very good replica Attachments
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They look good! See Dave Berriman's suggested amended crossover values mentioned above. I've been running the 4.7R resistors in both series and zobel positions for some months. It's definitely brightened and enlivened the top, although I sometimes think a little too much. Today I was listening to Keith Jarret's Koln Concert LP and his piano sounded a lot more forward than it used to. I think I can do better yet. I want to try 5.7R in the series position.
Please do 4.7R made a big difference. Perhaps too big. The Koln concert used to sound like Jarret's piano was several metres behind the speakers. It now sounds more like 1m and just a little clangy and bright, and the imaging is less coherent . Hence I think a median value R1 should be better.
I suspect the Zobel R2 needs less tweaking than the series cap, too. Rather stupidly I changed both at the same time. I think what I should have done is left R2 alone, or cut the Zobel entirely, until R1 was sorted.
Overall, with 4.7R they are less tolerant of recording quality. That isn't an issue with the Koln LP, but with some other material there is a harshness and muddle that I've not heard previously. The original slightly dim top end is kinder.
Unfortunately I have no measurement gear, but after 30 years I know them pretty well. They do an awful lot 'good enough' to not be distracted by hi-fi.
I quite often have the opportunity to hear equipment of insane value (a friend supplies systems costing EUR100,000 upwards, to the very rich, about half of that speaker cost). Almost always I find them too analytical, hyper-real and fatiguing. Live music is never that clear and shiny!
IME DBS6 are best with your ears on, or a bit below the woofer axis, IMV that gives better integration and tonal balance. I think the woofer beams midrange quite strongly near the crossover point. Off axis this seems to be part of why the DBS6 can sound dull in the near field.
If your stands aren't tall enough the speakers can be tilted backwards to raise the axis, which also puts the drivers in better time alignment. Or try them inverted with the tweeter below the woofer.
Because I don't have the room for 60cm stands and have to sit 2.5m from the speakers, I diverged from Berriman's design by tilting the back panel, and making stands to support the speakers angled upwards, on very heavy sand-filled and spiked pillar stands. They have a chamfered platform that slots into recesses in the speaker base, so can't be pushed off or over by kids (this mattered when I made them). Box volume and baffle size are the same, but all edges are radiused. I've not regretted this perversion, although if I did it again I'd reduce the angles by 5-10degrees. There is no sense of 'sound from a box' - the image just floats in space. It also has the very useful side effect of making it impossible for people to put cups or pot-plants on top of the speakers.
The DBS6 is quite sensitive to room positioning IME. Too close to the wall muddles and bloats the bass. Toed in just a little works best for me.
4.7R made a big difference. Perhaps too big. The Koln concert used to sound like Jarret's piano was several metres behind the speakers. It now sounds more like 1m and just a little clangy and bright, and the imaging is less coherent . Hence I think a median value R1 should be better. I suspect the Zobel R2 needs less tweaking than the series cap, too. Rather stupidly I changed both at the same time. I think what I should have done is left R2 alone, or cut the Zobel entirely, until R1 was sorted.
Overall, with 4.7R they are less tolerant of recording quality. That isn't an issue with the Koln LP, but with some other material there is a harshness and muddle that I've not heard previously. The original slightly dim top end is kinder.
Unfortunately I have no measurement gear, but after 30 years I know them pretty well. They do an awful lot 'good enough' to not be distracted by hi-fi.
I quite often have the opportunity to hear equipment of insane value (a friend supplies systems costing EUR100,000 upwards, to the very rich, about half of that speaker cost). Almost always I find them too analytical, hyper-real and fatiguing. Live music is never that clear and shiny!
IME DBS6 are best with your ears on, or a bit below the woofer axis, IMV that gives better integration and tonal balance. I think the woofer beams midrange quite strongly near the crossover point. Off axis this seems to be part of why the DBS6 can sound dull in the near field.
If your stands aren't tall enough the speakers can be tilted backwards to raise the axis, which also puts the drivers in better time alignment. Or try them inverted with the tweeter below the woofer.
Because I don't have the room for 60cm stands and have to sit 2.5m from the speakers, I diverged from Berriman's design by tilting the back panel, and making stands to support the speakers angled upwards, on very heavy sand-filled and spiked pillar stands. They have a chamfered platform that slots into recesses in the speaker base, so can't be pushed off or over by kids (this mattered when I made them). Box volume and baffle size are the same, but all edges are radiused. I've not regretted this perversion, although if I did it again I'd reduce the angles by 5-10degrees. There is no sense of 'sound from a box' - the image just floats in space. It also has the very useful side effect of making it impossible for people to put cups or pot-plants on top of the speakers.
The DBS6 is quite sensitive to room positioning IME. Too close to the wall muddles and bloats the bass. Toed in just a little works best for me.
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Hi, that’s a lot of good information, I’ll listen to the DBS6 even more in the next few days, and I have the impression that the longer they play again, the better the sound will be, they haven’t played for at least 10 years!
With their information, I will consider taking the crossover out of the box so that I can try all the variants from the outside.
It’s going to be a long weekend Thanks for the tips
your Dbs6 is very cool with the stands
With their information, I will consider taking the crossover out of the box so that I can try all the variants from the outside.
It’s going to be a long weekend
Thanks for the tips your Dbs6 is very cool with the stands
Hi, I mounted the treble section of the crossover outside the box. I quickly tried out 4.7 ohms and 5.5 and ended up with 5.5 ohms, only in the row position. A light turns on in one corner or another. It's fun to listen to. This is already going in the right direction!
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I'll give you an interim result, the resistance of 5.5 ohms in series has proven itself! At 4.7 Ohms the timbre of some female voices also changes slightly.
I don't hear any difference with the Zobel, whether it's the standard version with 1 ohm or with 4.7 ohms or without the circuit at all. It's very likely that I won't change anything about it.
On the weekend in the evening a friend who supposedly has better ears than me is coming, let's see what the result is
I'll get back to here if we come to a conclusion.
I don't hear any difference with the Zobel, whether it's the standard version with 1 ohm or with 4.7 ohms or without the circuit at all. It's very likely that I won't change anything about it.
On the weekend in the evening a friend who supposedly has better ears than me is coming, let's see what the result is
I'll get back to here if we come to a conclusion.
Hi Mlks. I've now tried 5.5R as R1 and it's far the best balance I've heard out of these in 25 years It just snaps into focus, with the sound image plane laid out just behind the speakers, and more coherent in depth and height. It's also cleaned up male voice to be less congested. I didn't expect that at all - I'd thought the male voice problems were intrinsic to the woofer, maybe crossed over a bit too high. I always liked them better on female vocal. TBH the treble is probably only about 1DB louder than it was with Dave Berriman's original 6.8R, but I'm really liking listening through them now.
Like you, I can't tell the difference with different values in the Zobel, or no Zobel at all, but my extreme treble hearing is already attenuated.
I always thought there was a better speaker trying to get out, and there it is! I'm not going to mess further with them. So thanks for the nudge
It just snaps into focus, with the sound image plane laid out just behind the speakers, and more coherent in depth and height. It's also cleaned up male voice to be less congested. I didn't expect that at all - I'd thought the male voice problems were intrinsic to the woofer, maybe crossed over a bit too high. I always liked them better on female vocal. TBH the treble is probably only about 1DB louder than it was with Dave Berriman's original 6.8R, but I'm really liking listening through them now.Like you, I can't tell the difference with different values in the Zobel, or no Zobel at all, but my extreme treble hearing is already attenuated.
I always thought there was a better speaker trying to get out, and there it is! I'm not going to mess further with them. So thanks for the nudge