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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 6th November 2019, 08:58 PM   #171
DonVK is offline DonVK  Canada
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I gate [-1ms,5ms] for the midrange and [-1ms,3ms] for the tweeter. I use the default Tukey 0.25 for both R&L.

The pillows are poly fill, the bankets are poly quilts, flannel, and felt combinations. Whatever was in arms reach

Last edited by DonVK; 6th November 2019 at 09:00 PM. Reason: pillow
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Old 7th November 2019, 07:06 AM   #172
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by DonVK View Post

Trial #2 : adding pillows, and blankets on top of the carpet to see if it is residual floor bounce. Pic#3 shows a top view of adding the floor treatments. Pic#4 show the results. I have shifted the curves so they can be compared easily. The more floor treatment, the smoother the curves get, and the lowest curve has 25cm of composite padding. So the ripple is from residual floor bounce and its higher for lower frequency as expected. At higher frequencies the carpet is more effective and the horn vertical polar narrows reducing energy to the floor. Measurements are 1/24 octave smoothing and gated [-1,5ms].

Other than the lowest "ripple", it still looks like a diffraction product to me.

My guess is that it's as much a product of the "t" shaped result from the line-array/"stand" + horn, than anything else.

I'd like to see just the horn: in other words either suspended (rope from ceiling) or a center "pole" *stand with some absorptive "wrap" (..a blanket) around that pole.

*like your mic stand.
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Last edited by ScottG; 7th November 2019 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:09 PM   #173
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Measuring axial response at twice the distance will shift floor bounce lower in freq. This helps to differentiate driver/baffle effect from bounce!

Yes, indoor measurements below 4-500Hz are tricky!
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:17 PM   #174
DonVK is offline DonVK  Canada
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Default MF ripple - woofer cabinet diffraction test

Two more good suggestions to try from @ScottG and @Juhazi.

I've put the horn on a narrow stand and removed the woofer cabinet to see what impact it had (pic#1).

There is some reduction in amplitude (pic#2) but the frequencies where peaks occur are the same. It suggests that some floor bounce might be going backwards because the woofer cabinet is not blocking it.

When I move the mic a bit forward or backward it changes the frequency where ripple peaks occur, suggesting floor bounce.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN7847crop.jpg (291.9 KB, 113 views)
File Type: jpg Ripple - no wfr cab - SH402@1m.jpg (95.9 KB, 122 views)

Last edited by DonVK; 7th November 2019 at 05:19 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 7th November 2019, 07:01 PM   #175
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
Measuring axial response at twice the distance will shift floor bounce lower in freq.
Probably not - but maybe if you drill big hole to floor...
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:18 PM   #176
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Originally Posted by kimmosto View Post
Probably not - but maybe if you drill big hole to floor...
Perhaps the reverse then, take a look at the attached thumbnail pic... but a change anyway!

Another thing to remember is that at few hundred Hz (wavelength much more than baffle width) , baffle diffraction doesn't make sudden ripples in response, but baffle loss which is smooth!

Click the image to open in full size.
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File Type: jpg frc80 vs 160-horz.jpg (69.3 KB, 72 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 7th November 2019 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 8th November 2019, 11:01 PM   #177
DonVK is offline DonVK  Canada
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^ agreed, the ripple will be a function of the geometry, frequency and floor material.

Onward to listening tests to see if I prefer one or maybe a hybrid of the two. The two candidates are shown below. The floor friendly model on the left and the conventional on the right. I've spent the last 2 weeks listening to the left one and now the right one is active. I listen to only one at a time, in the same position, using a generated mono signal.

I've been trying this software Harman - How to Listen to train myself and maybe one of the speakers will reveal more detail to give me a higher score
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:39 AM   #178
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Biggesst difference is in directivity of midrange and highs. This difference will most likely realize when a speaker is set near a corner in the room. The horn-version will have less early reflections and thus smoother room response and better imaging. When placed far from walls (more than 1m, typically along the long wall), there shouldn't be big difference.

I like to check the decay of room response (at listening position). Here are my dipoles with Fountek Neo3.5H as tweeter, and with backside "ambience" tweeter (single speaker playing). And yes it was easy to hear the difference, I liked more the version with ambience tweeter. Later on I switched to dipole tweeter.
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File Type: png ainogneob v2 vs neo v11 0¤ decay csd.png (761.5 KB, 22 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 9th November 2019 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 10th November 2019, 09:38 PM   #179
DonVK is offline DonVK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docali View Post
The sound source seems to be nearer to the floor than to the ceiling. I always try to place a pillow on the floor at mid of the distance in order to assess the amount of the floor comb filter.

Here is a good picture from the CLIO Pocket manual.
Attachment 792310
Thanks for the suggestion(s) and the diagram.

I've been looking at that diagram and tried to find the actual gate boundary when the floor bounce disappears. The calculated path delay depends on where the bounce occurs and varies only a small amount (5.5ms -0/+0.5ms) for my setup (0.8m vert, 1.0m horiz). I also get essentially the same curve for gating [0,5], [0,6], [0,7], [0,8] so my MF graphs include the floor bounce which is what I want. I can remove the floor bounce effect by reducing to less than 4 ms. The previous HF tweeter measurements were gated too short to include floor bounce.

This is an MF comparision between the RS52 dome and HS402 horn measurements gated [0,6ms]. The floor does not care.
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File Type: jpg MF FloorBounce Dome vs Horn.jpg (86.7 KB, 18 views)

Last edited by DonVK; 10th November 2019 at 09:40 PM. Reason: clarify
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