Hi guys,
I've been reading a lot through the forum lately, it's been amazing so far discovering new stuff about speaker design and amount of theory involved.
I am looking for a simple two-way project to start with, hoped you'd help me out to pick one. Some of the requirements I have for it:
One of the options I found and really liked is Peerless HDS PPB 830860 from Troels Gravesen. Any thoughts on this one?
The other option (the cheaper one) was going custom with Dayton DS135-8 / DC28F-8 combo and crossing them at 2.5kHz. This post was very helpful on how to build the crossover and adjust as necessary.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers !
Simon
I've been reading a lot through the forum lately, it's been amazing so far discovering new stuff about speaker design and amount of theory involved.
I am looking for a simple two-way project to start with, hoped you'd help me out to pick one. Some of the requirements I have for it:
- The speakers will end-up in the small room so gotta keep the cabinets small as well (<10L)
- Woofer size constraints because of the cabinet ~5inch
- The budget should stay ~300eur. I live in continental Europe so hard to get good deals on speaker parts..
- Not too overcomplicated with woodworking
One of the options I found and really liked is Peerless HDS PPB 830860 from Troels Gravesen. Any thoughts on this one?
The other option (the cheaper one) was going custom with Dayton DS135-8 / DC28F-8 combo and crossing them at 2.5kHz. This post was very helpful on how to build the crossover and adjust as necessary.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers !
Simon
Have you looked on the full range part of the forum, there are a number of fairly simple designs using full range drivers from mark audio alpair and Fostex. Have a look on the frugal-phile site for outline plans.
The simplest is the classic golden ratio for the Alpair 10P or 10.3M. The drivers are around 100euro each but do not need a crossover and a 20w amp will drive them fine. The Onken based speakers are really good looking, think the 10P based one (mar-ken10) is 13l. These are a bit more involved to make, the trapezoidal one is the most challenging.
Just a thought. And if you want to re-use the drivers later they will make a good mid in a three way or you can add a sub for more low frequency.
Just a few thought to get you going.
The simplest is the classic golden ratio for the Alpair 10P or 10.3M. The drivers are around 100euro each but do not need a crossover and a 20w amp will drive them fine. The Onken based speakers are really good looking, think the 10P based one (mar-ken10) is 13l. These are a bit more involved to make, the trapezoidal one is the most challenging.
Just a thought. And if you want to re-use the drivers later they will make a good mid in a three way or you can add a sub for more low frequency.
Just a few thought to get you going.
Here’s an example using the Fostex FX120, thus will eat up all you budget in drivers alone but no crossover cost so just wood on top of this but will give you an idea what the fonken/marken speakers are like, this one happens to be 10l.
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/dFonkenFX-0v8-map-020709.pdf
http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/dFonkenFX-0v8-map-020709.pdf
Just my opinion, but since this forum is multi-way, I can't imagine why we should spend time on full range drivers. I mean, it's why we are here. Just sayin'.
I think that Troels Gravesen Peerless 5" project is excellent, particularly with the R2604 ring radiator. You are hardly out in the boondocks in Europe, and lautsprechershop informs me the drivers are about 50 Euros each.
TBH, I think that overly small cabinets are a bit of a waste, and 10-15L makes more sense to me.
I don't think it is easy to design a speaker entirely by ear. You have to know a bit about suitable drivers for easy projects. And Troels did choose easy ones as it goes.
Another way is to use a modeller like Visaton Boxsim.
I just knocked up a 5" bass circuit in 13L reflex using the 30 Euro Visaton W130S/8 midbass and the 50 Euro Visaton G20SC tweeter.
It works pretty well. It's actually quite close to a BBC LS3/5A in concept. Nothing stopping you substituting another flattish tweeter either and tweaking the level resistor. I would prefer a metal dome myself. A nice little SEAS prestige, for instance.
Another way to find good projects is to download these bpj files into the projekte folder of Boxsim. Be warned that quality varies and you can actually improve most of them.
200 € – 300 € – Boxsim Projektdatenbank
Here's how that Visaton 5" looks. Frequency response ends up in much the same place as Troels' design. You can use cheap NP electrolytics in the bass circuit to cut cost.
I think that Troels Gravesen Peerless 5" project is excellent, particularly with the R2604 ring radiator. You are hardly out in the boondocks in Europe, and lautsprechershop informs me the drivers are about 50 Euros each.
TBH, I think that overly small cabinets are a bit of a waste, and 10-15L makes more sense to me.
I don't think it is easy to design a speaker entirely by ear. You have to know a bit about suitable drivers for easy projects. And Troels did choose easy ones as it goes.
Another way is to use a modeller like Visaton Boxsim.
I just knocked up a 5" bass circuit in 13L reflex using the 30 Euro Visaton W130S/8 midbass and the 50 Euro Visaton G20SC tweeter.
It works pretty well. It's actually quite close to a BBC LS3/5A in concept. Nothing stopping you substituting another flattish tweeter either and tweaking the level resistor. I would prefer a metal dome myself. A nice little SEAS prestige, for instance.
Another way to find good projects is to download these bpj files into the projekte folder of Boxsim. Be warned that quality varies and you can actually improve most of them.
200 € – 300 € – Boxsim Projektdatenbank
Here's how that Visaton 5" looks. Frequency response ends up in much the same place as Troels' design. You can use cheap NP electrolytics in the bass circuit to cut cost.
Attachments
Talented designers at the audioexcite website have a well documented 2-way within your budget using a 5" midwoofer from SB-Acoustics.
www.audioexcite.com >> Kensho Two – M3
Kensho Two – M3 is a small sized 2-way stand-mount bass-reflex loudspeaker. It’s ideal for small to medium sized listening room. The tweeter level can be fine-tuned according to personal preferences and taste. The enclosure net volume is approximately 10 liters (enclosure volume – drivers, filter and port).
Kensho Two – M3 uses a 5″ mid-woofer and a 1″ soft dome tweeter from SB Acoustics.
The SB15NRXC30-4 is a low distorting 4Ω mid-woofer with a coated Papyrus fiber cone.
The SB Acoustics SB26STAC-C000-4 is a 4Ω, 1″ coated textile dome tweeter.
===============
www.audioexcite.com >> Kensho Two – M3
Kensho Two – M3 is a small sized 2-way stand-mount bass-reflex loudspeaker. It’s ideal for small to medium sized listening room. The tweeter level can be fine-tuned according to personal preferences and taste. The enclosure net volume is approximately 10 liters (enclosure volume – drivers, filter and port).
Kensho Two – M3 uses a 5″ mid-woofer and a 1″ soft dome tweeter from SB Acoustics.
The SB15NRXC30-4 is a low distorting 4Ω mid-woofer with a coated Papyrus fiber cone.
The SB Acoustics SB26STAC-C000-4 is a 4Ω, 1″ coated textile dome tweeter.
===============
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First off, thanks for all the replies, I went through each and every suggestion.
I didn't actually consider much full-range speakers until I started reading about Fostex and Markaudio Alpair speakers and how good the reviews are. I always thought that having 2+ drivers can always cover more range and be better/cheaper option to single driver fullrange speaker. Do you think that's the right judgement or what's your take on fullrange vs multi-way speakers?
BTW, I couldn't find ~100eur deal in Europe for Alpair 10M or 10.3M. It's all closer to 150eur + shipping cost and I will end up over my budget. The best options for me are Scan Speak, SB Acoustics, Seas, Peerless-Vifa, Dayton, Fountek. Not sure if I can get any decent fullrange driver from these brands inside the budget.
As for Troels Peerless project he suggest 8L enclosure. Most of the projects though go over 10L (fullrange or multi-way), does that mean I have to re-think the cabinet design and allocate some more space in rather small'ish room? Does bigger enclosure always means > bass response or are there other downsides?
Thanks Steve for the link to Visaton Boxism. Currently I'm playing around with VituixCAD2 for the project. Still learning a lot to get all the pieces together. What modeler in your opinion is better?
Again, I'm at dead-end finding proper deals on Visaton drivers, so not an option at this point. Same for Speedster Tang Band woofers :/
Kensho Two on the other hand looks promising. How does it compare with Troels Peerless project?
I didn't actually consider much full-range speakers until I started reading about Fostex and Markaudio Alpair speakers and how good the reviews are. I always thought that having 2+ drivers can always cover more range and be better/cheaper option to single driver fullrange speaker. Do you think that's the right judgement or what's your take on fullrange vs multi-way speakers?
BTW, I couldn't find ~100eur deal in Europe for Alpair 10M or 10.3M. It's all closer to 150eur + shipping cost and I will end up over my budget. The best options for me are Scan Speak, SB Acoustics, Seas, Peerless-Vifa, Dayton, Fountek. Not sure if I can get any decent fullrange driver from these brands inside the budget.
As for Troels Peerless project he suggest 8L enclosure. Most of the projects though go over 10L (fullrange or multi-way), does that mean I have to re-think the cabinet design and allocate some more space in rather small'ish room? Does bigger enclosure always means > bass response or are there other downsides?
Thanks Steve for the link to Visaton Boxism. Currently I'm playing around with VituixCAD2 for the project. Still learning a lot to get all the pieces together. What modeler in your opinion is better?
Again, I'm at dead-end finding proper deals on Visaton drivers, so not an option at this point. Same for Speedster Tang Band woofers :/
Kensho Two on the other hand looks promising. How does it compare with Troels Peerless project?
paper or plastic
Which sonic signature do you favor in a nearfield monitor?
1) Kensho design requires an amplifier which can drive 4-ohm load to get the increased efficiency.
2) The Kensho has noticably lower (37Hz) bass than the Peerless(50Hz)
3) I would favor the SB_Acoustics tweeter.
4) Generally: SB_Acoustics hard paper cone will produce slightly superior transients to the poly-plastic Peerless cone.
5) Generally: The Peerless poly-plastic cone will produce a slightly more relaxed upper treble.
----Kensho uses acoustic LR4 slope to attenuate the paper cone breakup
==========
SB_Acoustics also sell a poly-plastic cone SB15MFC30-4 midwoofer which you can swap-into the Kensho if you are concerned about cone breakup.
==========
Kensho Two – M3
Type: Two-way small sized stand-mount loudspeaker
Enclosure type: Bass-reflex
Woofer driver unit: 5” coated Papyrus fiber cone. SB Acostics SB15NRXC30-4
Tweeter driver unit: 1″ coated textile dome tweeter. SB Acostics SB26STAC-C000-4
Cross-over frequency: 2.1kHz.
Cross-over function: LR fourth-order (acoustically)
Frequency response: 37-25000Hz
Sensitivity: 86db 1m/2.83v, on-axis @ 1kHz
Nominal impedance: 4 Ohms
I just had a look at the Dayton DS135-8 in Boxsim. Quite easy to import files from Dayton and make the necessary adjustments.
It's actually a difficult driver due to the FR rise in the upper range, which messes up the tweeter filter. It has a bit of a presence lump in the 500-1000Hz range too.
I wouldn't bother with it.
Various wish lists aside, I think Troels has done a super job on this Peerless 830860/R2604 project.
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
What's not to like?
Things not to be tried with this design: A bigger box. It's actually very close to the 8L Vas of the Qts 0.39 driver. So you get what you get. A very high quality bedroom speaker which is undemanding on the amplifier.
FWIW, the LCR notch addresses tonality problems on voices with a small box. It is not a breakup notch, because the 830860 has very little.
A perfect example of how a well-behaved driver makes the whole process easy. I'll leave others to waste time and money on 4 ohm designs with huge and expensive capacitors, low crossover, and complex circuits to deal with terrible cone breakup.
It's actually a difficult driver due to the FR rise in the upper range, which messes up the tweeter filter. It has a bit of a presence lump in the 500-1000Hz range too.
I wouldn't bother with it.
Various wish lists aside, I think Troels has done a super job on this Peerless 830860/R2604 project.
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
What's not to like?
Things not to be tried with this design: A bigger box. It's actually very close to the 8L Vas of the Qts 0.39 driver. So you get what you get. A very high quality bedroom speaker which is undemanding on the amplifier.
FWIW, the LCR notch addresses tonality problems on voices with a small box. It is not a breakup notch, because the 830860 has very little.
A perfect example of how a well-behaved driver makes the whole process easy. I'll leave others to waste time and money on 4 ohm designs with huge and expensive capacitors, low crossover, and complex circuits to deal with terrible cone breakup.
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