4 way full scale home system

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Most of that "live" feeling sound you are looking for can only done with a proper horn system--I tried for 40yrs with much more expensive and sophisticated technology / drivers and failed !!!! I now have a 5 way horn system with field coil compression drivers that is the next best thing to being at a live concert. When I add up all money / time spent on 20+ speaker systems, electrostatic, planar magnetics, ribbons, Lowther type drivers, Mangers, my present horn system cost is a drop in the bucket compared to what I have spent over the years. I know, I know it's a great hobby and I enjoyed the journey. I have been to almost every major audio show in America since year 2000 and have not found any speaker system I would rather own--- except the Cessaro Gamma 2's.

But don't despair, you can get an Oris type horn and AER, Lowther type driver with good mid bass drivers and subs. Another option is picking up a pair of used / new TAD 4001's with proper horns (listed on EBAY) and a good tweeter / mid bass / subs. That "live sound" you lust after lives in the mid bass / midrange--done by PROPER horns. Good luck in your search.
 
Thanks for replies.

So, some updates. I have been cheated by a guy selling Beyma pro5wnd :( (found used ones in "new condition" which came to me with a punched through cone fillew with silicone adhesive :dunno:). So this speakers will not be used in the system. Instead I placed an order on PHL 1130 drivers which should be actually one of the best options for mid drivers.

Meanwhile I started some experiments with 10fh520. I made a 19 liter box with 3 inch wide port on the top. I played with the port length and box size by filling it's space with wood down to 14 liters. I made my first measurements which took place in a very large room. Below are the results with 18 (blue) and 14 (green) liter boxes and the same 15 cm long port.

As can be seen, the responce is not at all flat. In both cases it starts to roll off at about 100Hz. Actually, the 10fh520 is quite a tricky driver to design enclosure. WinISD suggests 7-8 liter ported box with a 80 cm long 4" port :D.

What I learned from my experiment today is that the port should be placed on the face of the speaker. In the mid range it is adding a nice midrange "bark" and punch which I enjoy much. Since my face baffle size is quite limited I was thinking about recktangular integrated port like used in some PA sustems. What is a disadvantage of such solution?
 

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So, it feels like I have to update the topic with some results.

So far I have been auditioning the speakers I initially considered.

First of all the Faital 10fh520. T-S measurement showed both woofers to have slightly higher Fs than specified, around 71 Hz and slightly higher Qt. Both woofers measured almost the same. I started making a vented box for those about 18 liters volume and played with port tunings and filler. The best result was achieved in a smaller enclosure of about 12-15 liters with longer port. However, the sound of one woofer in such enclosure gave sort of “small” sound. Great punch, but instruments like piano, guitar or saxophone just did not sound full scale. It felt like I am listening to a small kitchen loudspeaker rather than somewhat close to live instrument. Tried different amps including SE tube and Hypex ucd180hd. As a next step I made a larger enclosure of about 30 liters tuned to approx. 90 Hz. This neither turned out well because the sound became boomy and remained small. Another thing about 10fh520 produced a nasty cone ring to my ears at frequency around 400 Hz. So I made a conclusion for myself that 10fh520 is a great woofer, can handle a lot of power and produce enormous sound pressure in midbass. Great for PA and perhaps will be a killer for bass guitar. However, for home I have to give up on it.

Next experiment included a beloved friend of mine from my guitar playing experience, the EV EVM12L in a thiele box. I just made a quick comparison between it and the above mentioned Faital in A-B sound test and it was no doubt for me the 12L was a winner for midbass in any aspect. Having this in mind I purchased locally a pair of vintage JBL K130 woofers and made a 90 liter box tuned to 70-80 Hz. After a quick audition I realized this is the sound I was looking for in midbass. Outstanding dynamics, live feeling of music. I know it has a low Xmax and aluminum cap bla-bla, but it just sounds awesome comparing to what I have heard before. This speaker delivers great emotions and makes me feel good after each listening with its energy. All musical instruments are alive and full-scale. The cone barely moves to fill in the room with music.

So next I started playing with midranges and tweeters. All biamped and DSP-ed. Made a sealed enclosure for PHL 1130 of about 3-4 liters and tried to cross with the K130 and RT2H-a. No matter how I tried it just did not work together well. Neither 1130 nor the tweeter could compete with the dynamics of the JBL and it only sounded worse when adding them. The sound was again too “small” in highs.

I tried a dome Scan Speak Illuminator tweeter directly over the K130 crossed at around 2K. This combination really worked out best so far. Still, there was lack of detail and “body” in the mid high range so I tried to add the EVM12L in the middle. Sounded generally good, but all this thing just became too massive so I excluded this option.

So here I am now, the K130 with Illuminators is the best I have achieved so far. Still the sound is not full enough on the top end, so now I consider auditing some horns with compression drivers. I tried to avoid compression drivers so far due to their problematic integration, “honky” and directional sound. Now I come to a conclusion that it might be unavoidable next step.

So I am looking for opinions/suggestions. Is it enough with 1” throat CD or will it be beneficial with 2”+ a supertweeter?

A few interesting conclusion I have made for myself out of all my experiments:
1. May have been said many times, but one thing is to look at a loudspeaker TS parameters and specs and another thing is how will it actually sound in certain application.
2. From now when looking a speaker specs I will also consider the actual size of the simulated enclosure. No matter if it is closed or BR. In case of showing too small box as optimal (being optimized for small enclosure for more convenient PA use) the “body” in the sound may also be too small with all the consequences. The size of the actual enclosure will define what instruments will sound best out of it.
 
Were you running your midwoofers bandpassed 90-700Hz, or full range?

So I am looking for opinions/suggestions. Is it enough with 1” throat CD or will it be beneficial with 2”+ a supertweeter?

Normally a 15" = 1" is enough.

However, you emphasise emotional response and "big" sound a lot. Therefore I'd suggest horn loading as far as your space + budget allows.

e.g. something like the Titan kit on DIY Sound Group.
 
Hey Antonfrazer, great project.

Where are you now then ? I'm lost a little bit although I dig myself through your topic. All drivers bought, tested, mixed feelings.. thinking.. ? Are you still able to sell them and try something different ? What's next ? And what's then ?

Plan A - if it gets good, it's good. Plan B - what if not ..? Still considering a different set of drivers ?

Nobody said but I would have omited the Beyma midbass at the beginning, the SPL curve was not that beautiful for me. I'm in a planning phase of a big home stereo too, active 3-way however.
 
Hello Vortex,

The plan is to stick to JBL 15" for midbass. Since the originally considered drivers cannot keep up with it, I am currently looking for a solution for mid-high range which so far narrows me down to horns with compression drivers. The speakers I have are currently our for sale. Unfortunately I did not see other way but to listen and evaluate them and make conclusions. It was great experience anyway.

So now I am looking for a compression driver/horn to try out. This is something new for me so I am doing some study. I read good reviews about Renkus-Heinz SSD3301 drivers for home use and I currently have opportunity to buy them locally, so this is one possible way forward.

The plan now is to find the combination of drivers I like best. Then I can proceed with building permanent enclosures and crossover design. Since I have come that far I do not want to stop on semi-satisfactory result.
 
Hmm, I understand. I don't know if this is the best approach - no critics, just trying to ease your job here ;)

Maybe you could do a bit more research with drivers, frequency curves, SPL-s (especially at the crossover region, but overall too), impedance curves, power handling, etc. and select your speaker drivers accordingly. Then you close out a bit more failure possibilities.

I think horns will help you reaching that special "live sound" since most (if not all) live speakers are horn based, even the bass. Although with decent amps and alone the environment.. you get better sound quality of course.

What I would recommend: just be aware of SPLs and amplifier power (gain!) when selecting a speaker driver and topping it with a horn.. adding a horn after planning without the horn.., it can provide you a complete different experience: increased SPL, "bright" sound, whatever.. so when you're aminig for horn drivers, keep in mind it's sensitivity with the horn together (most probably above ~95-ish dB or even 100+ dB).

So you either select less-sensitive horn+driver combination or - better - you "dampen" the thing either with L-Pad (passive, less recommended) or via gain (active, on the crossover or on the amp itself, or via DSP). So for a horn mid-high and especially for a horn tweeter you need way less amp power than for the midbass-bass section 'cause mid-highs and tweeters produce a lot more sound pressure with a horn attached. Bass too but as far as I remember you don't use horn bass.

But here it's again a matter of taste. In an active amped system this is the nice thing: you can fine tune your system according to your taste and you can also use higher sensitivity drivers for the top region to save needed amp power for them (less size, less cost).

So I think it's good to think through the whole chain always, like: what kind of sound you need, how much "power" (sound pressure) shall it deliver in what kind of room (size, damping), and then going onto the big active/passive decision, then choosing drivers (active design provides way more freedom in driver selection), then when you're done with driver selection you can consider your needed power with regards to SPL curves/sensitivities.. small deviances can be (and probably should be) compensated via gain/DSP, large deviances should be compensated again this way but with proper amp sizing. It doesn't make sense to use an amp for tweeters and set it's "volume" (gain) to 1/10th of the maximum while you could reach the same with a smaller amp and maybe 1/2 pot setting (less noise than keeping a strong, big amp at very low pot setting for tweeter).

Just some thoughts, hints, whatever. One opinion out of thousands probably. Take it with a grain of salt ;)
 
Since the originally considered drivers cannot keep up with it, I am currently looking for a solution for mid-high range which so far narrows me down to horns with compression drivers.

What drivers do you have NOW at this very moment in your mind, for 1 side ?
- bass:
- midbass:
- midrange (mid-highs) :
- tweeter:

Are amps already at hand ? If yes, which ones.. ? If not yet, what's your plan on amp side ?
 
Thanks Vortex, healthy critics is always good I think.

I surely look carefully speakers specs and curves when selecting one. I think the kit of speakers I had chosed in the beginning was not at all bad with regards to specs. However, as I mentioned, you cannot understand how will a speaker actualy sound from specs without listening to it. And it is not really about SPL, it is something else. The "size" of the sound. My intention with this project is to achieve a sound which when being played in a room and you go to another room you hear musicians playing (rehearsing) in this room rather than a pair of speakers playing there.

To your question. For bass up to 70-100Hz I will use Beyma 18xl50 as originally planned. I still believe in them in H-frames. The amp for them is on the way to me. It is Alto Mistrtal 6000 rated as about 800W per channel into 8 Ohm. Quite a beast of 27kg. I will tweak it with level up components and class AB. In case of too much power I may remove some output transistors and good supply power is always good.

For midbass I will have the JBL either K130 or 2220 if a manage to get a good pair. I have not decided on the amp, in case I go active to the midrange I will run it with Hypex ucd180 amps, if passive it will be powered by a powerful triode SE tube amp on 6s41s. The amp is currently being built. I am actually quitee happy with the K130 performance despite low Xmax.

For the midrange not yet decided. Looking at R-H SSD 3301 drivers with 2" throat. I will try them with original Renkus Heinz 820 horns, if not satisfactory may also look at some options from P.audio for horns. The amp for this is the above mentioned 6s41s amp 6-8 watt.

For highs I am looking at Fane tweeters such as ST5022 (somewhat similar to famous JBL075). Will try to cross them passive at about 6-8k. If going active I have a SE amp somewhat similar to 2A3 about 2,5 watt.

chris661, I am also a little surprised. I guess it has nothing to do with this particulat woofer, but maybe it does. Perhaps if I had 4 of those in one channel I would come to another conclusion. I have actually compared it to Eminence Kappa 10lf that I have for bass guitar and the result was similar. So most likely my impression was rather related to the size of the woofer. Yes, of course I tried different X points and eq having miniDSP.
 
Hi,Antonfazer
I have tried various JBL and EV 15" drivers for mid bass duty years ago with good results but the Altec (now Great Plains Audio) 515b drivers were substantially better particularly in the low midrange. For tweeters look at the larger Fostex horn tweeters and get the biggest you can afford (T500amk2 is best). I use the TAD ET-703 but are now very rare and crazy expensive. Re read post #22, eventually you will wind up with some of what I said if you are serious about live, dynamic, sound. You can also look up BD Sound in the Netherlands for some more good ideas. Also look up Dr. Bruce Edgar's Titan speaker system. Buy right and cry once is what my father once told me !!! Good luck in your search.
 
I think horns will help you reaching that special "live sound" since most (if not all) live speakers are horn based, even the bass. Although with decent amps and alone the environment.. you get better sound quality of course.

FWIW, in the live sound world, almost all HF units are horn-loaded.
For the rest of the bands, direct-radiating is probably the most common.
There are examples of mostly horn-loaded systems (see Nexo Alpha for example), but they have largely been replaced by line arrays, for better or for worse.
There are still companies out there using horns (see Danley Sound Labs), but they're in the minority.

I'd guess that over 90% of PA speakers have a horn-loaded HF driver and a direct-radiating midbass in the 10-15" range.

Chris
 
Hi Chris, well, yeeeaaahhsss. I went to some festivals here recently and was also attending the Jean Michel Jarre concert at our famous stadium used for live performances. All speakers I saw were horns, either the folded horns (bass, midbass) or midranges.. everything. I was in the 3rd row on the ground in the very middle :cool:of the arena but couldn't see plain drivers facing the crowd or at least any back loaded horns.. there were huge horizontal ones beneath and in front of the stage and medium ones at the sides like modular towers.. upper midrange and tweeters hung up in a somewhat bent vertical tower formation in the air.

On the other hand, Thievery Corporation about 5-6 years ago on a summer festival's main stage - there I saw plenty of crowd facing woofers too stacked onto eachother.

I think it's a mixed thing nowadays and of course lots of venues are also building from good-old stuff and also maybe mixes them. I've seen both versions.
 
However, as I mentioned, you cannot understand how will a speaker actualy sound from specs without listening to it. And it is not really about SPL, it is something else. The "size" of the sound.

Hmm interesting setup. Interesting thoughts. Maybe you can re-think some things (or not) based on my next design. You're just walking a somewhat different way and I like that to be honest :) - at least from mindset-wise :) You go the experience way, buying-trying-selling and cycle begins again 'til good, I rather try to plan everything on paper first (and then I might also ditch the whole stuff for sg else) :D

But taking care of SPL is not a stupid thing: sound pressure is of biggest priority our ear is focusing on. Everything else comes behind that, like directivity, distortion, etc. So SPL should be somewhat flat. (I'm doing an underline here 'cause some people believe a very flat system might sound very sterile - I see different opinions about this on the internet, but I'm pretty sure it's not worth going into heavy discussions about this, it's just like many things in the audio world, a question of TASTE. ;) When you listen to a lot of different systems on audio shows, friends, etc, slowly you can get a grasp of what you would like to achieve.. which kind of sound you like more and which less).

Oookay, so here it is. I'm building (1 side here) with following intentions:

- 1x RCF LF21X451 woofer, 21". Original choice was the Dayton PA460-8 but I'm going sometimes home theater too (with this stereo set) and then some extra power handling is always nice.
- 4x Faital Pro 6FE100 midranges. Flat response almost like a ruler in the freq. region I need. When looking for a good midrange, keep in mind: +/- 3dB deviation on the curve means 1/2 or 2x amplifier power. That's already big .. with DSP and a mic you can make any driver sound flat, but I'm not sure I want to correct big when I can achieve almost the same on a native/natural way with a good midrange selection.
- 1x Aurum Cantus AST25120 AMT tweeter. I LOVE ribbon-like sound but these don't even need a transformer. Hell, why not. They'll have separate box too so swap is easy if I'm not satisfied.

My considerations were:
- possibility of passive drive with 1 stereo amp and passive XO while 6 monoblocks are being built (it takes time while having a normal 8-hours work, family, etc.)
- enough power reserve for the bass region when I switch on some minor bass lift in "movie mode"
- some load sharing in midrange region and +6dB gain from ca. 91dB (1 driver) to ca. 97dB (4 drivers, 2 in series then these in parallel) which then almost match the woofer at the crossover point..
- ..and they match the tweeter too (tweeter is ~97dB at 2kHz).

Small deviances are possible and expected, due to box mainly but also due to manufacturer data (but I think these are mostly valid values), these can be corrected via gain easily. Room EQ is a different thing.. first I'm trying to achieve a somewhat acceptable flat response in 'free air' and then fine-tune with DPS, including room and the small dip mentioned by Paul McGowan (PS Audio) from ca. 800Hz to 1.5kHz.

- 1st XO around 125-150Hz (rather 125 I think but real life will show). Mark Knopfler should mostly sing from the midranges already (he will still slip onto the woofer a bit, therefore 125Hz XO is better for me)..
- 2nd XO around 2k, I start rolling off the midranges quickly before their ~3.2kHz lift while starting the sweeet tweeter at the same time already.

4th order Linkwitz-Riley model, 24dB/oct slopes, no overload danger on the tweeter, at least I won't crank up the system to the absolute maximum. I dare to stress the woofer, the midranges, the worst thing as I've seen is increased distortion :D This is good hardcore PA stuff, they don't burn that easy. And I'm not going mad anyway.. However, the tweeter will be protected, they are capable of 100W@1kHz crossed with 12dB/oct., I'll employ 2kHz XO and steep slope (4th order) so despite some possible (?) manufacturer polished information .. I hope the best to survive with them at decent medium power too. And I plan to use the system normally at fractions of it's maximum SPL capability anyway (I think I'll limit that at master volume control side too, so a "maximum" volume setting won't be the real max yet but at around ~80%).

Bass amps: Class D Hypex UcD2k running on toroid linear PSUs.
Midrange: Class AB tube amps, parallell pushpull, KT88 tubes, smooth drive, long life. Not sure if I want those new, less-reliable KT150s.
Tweeter: Class AB Mosfets

I'm not saying this is a perfect setup, nobody has such (yet) but crazy enough for sure, fun to plan, fun to think about obstacles and trying to avoid them (e.g. midrange Fs and impedance peak which is below the 1st crossover frequency, luckily.. better to avoid it completely than living with it so tube amps with low feedback and low damping factor have an easy job to drive midranges at stable-flat impedances while class D doesn't care woofer impedance peak much).

Take what you want from these considerations.. focus is exactly on these to-be-considered things, not on the gear or drivers themselves. And I cannot say it will work until I heard it. But cannot state the opposite either :D :rolleyes:
 
Thanks everyone for replies!

Some updates. Last weeks were quite busy, but I managed to do some more prototyping and listening. I acquired locally a pair of 2220H in extremely good condition, which was a found. Also I did go for Renkus-Heinz SSD3301 2" compression drivers with original CBH820 horns.

So after playing round with them I liked the SSD3301 for midrange, but it definitely needs a tweeter and lacks clarity above 5-6k. The best combination was achieved with Illuminator silk dome tweeter taking over at about 5k when running active. For passive crossover it is certainly not an option due to sensitivity. So I am looking for a solution for HF unit, either a bullet tweeter or a small horn with CD.

I have some concerns about the 820 horn. Even when equalized it still produces unpleasant honkyness, especially noticeable on more complex music styles. Open for suggestions here, horns is not my cup of tea yet.

And the most interesting, the woofers. I compared the k130 to 2220H in a BR box of about 100 liters. Woofers were played from 80-100 to about 1k crossed to a subwoofer and a CD. The 2220 showed a little higher sensitivity and is lightning fast in midbass. However, it lacks a lot of musicality and it does not integrate well with the enclosure due to low Q (measured 0.15). I thought it should not be an issue since the driver will only play from 90 hz or so, but I was wrong. The 2220 also has a nasty midrange response above 400-500 hz I did not like and the k130 doe not have. So after quite a lot of listening and comparison I liked the k130 more. So I will stick to the k130 in this project I think. Perhaps I will cut out the middle part of the aluminum dust cap and replace with a cloth one to smooth out the response on HF.

One more goodie, the amp for subwoofer arrived, it is Alto Mistral 6000, 27 kg monster. I thought 700W+ RMS into 8 ohm will be too much for my Beymas 18lx60, but it actually turned out to be a perfect match. Bass is tremendous even with 1 woofer in open air. Very quick and dynamic! In H-frames should be a killer. I plan to tweak the amp a little by recaping and playing with operation amps, but it is good for bass even as it is.
 
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