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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

4 way full scale home system
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Old 24th October 2018, 03:07 PM   #31
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Since the originally considered drivers cannot keep up with it, I am currently looking for a solution for mid-high range which so far narrows me down to horns with compression drivers.

What drivers do you have NOW at this very moment in your mind, for 1 side ?
- bass:
- midbass:
- midrange (mid-highs) :
- tweeter:

Are amps already at hand ? If yes, which ones.. ? If not yet, what's your plan on amp side ?
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Old 24th October 2018, 03:56 PM   #32
Antonfazer is offline Antonfazer  Sweden
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Thanks Vortex, healthy critics is always good I think.

I surely look carefully speakers specs and curves when selecting one. I think the kit of speakers I had chosed in the beginning was not at all bad with regards to specs. However, as I mentioned, you cannot understand how will a speaker actualy sound from specs without listening to it. And it is not really about SPL, it is something else. The "size" of the sound. My intention with this project is to achieve a sound which when being played in a room and you go to another room you hear musicians playing (rehearsing) in this room rather than a pair of speakers playing there.

To your question. For bass up to 70-100Hz I will use Beyma 18xl50 as originally planned. I still believe in them in H-frames. The amp for them is on the way to me. It is Alto Mistrtal 6000 rated as about 800W per channel into 8 Ohm. Quite a beast of 27kg. I will tweak it with level up components and class AB. In case of too much power I may remove some output transistors and good supply power is always good.

For midbass I will have the JBL either K130 or 2220 if a manage to get a good pair. I have not decided on the amp, in case I go active to the midrange I will run it with Hypex ucd180 amps, if passive it will be powered by a powerful triode SE tube amp on 6s41s. The amp is currently being built. I am actually quitee happy with the K130 performance despite low Xmax.

For the midrange not yet decided. Looking at R-H SSD 3301 drivers with 2" throat. I will try them with original Renkus Heinz 820 horns, if not satisfactory may also look at some options from P.audio for horns. The amp for this is the above mentioned 6s41s amp 6-8 watt.

For highs I am looking at Fane tweeters such as ST5022 (somewhat similar to famous JBL075). Will try to cross them passive at about 6-8k. If going active I have a SE amp somewhat similar to 2A3 about 2,5 watt.

chris661, I am also a little surprised. I guess it has nothing to do with this particulat woofer, but maybe it does. Perhaps if I had 4 of those in one channel I would come to another conclusion. I have actually compared it to Eminence Kappa 10lf that I have for bass guitar and the result was similar. So most likely my impression was rather related to the size of the woofer. Yes, of course I tried different X points and eq having miniDSP.
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Old 24th October 2018, 04:39 PM   #33
hottattoo is offline hottattoo  United States
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Hi,Antonfazer
I have tried various JBL and EV 15" drivers for mid bass duty years ago with good results but the Altec (now Great Plains Audio) 515b drivers were substantially better particularly in the low midrange. For tweeters look at the larger Fostex horn tweeters and get the biggest you can afford (T500amk2 is best). I use the TAD ET-703 but are now very rare and crazy expensive. Re read post #22, eventually you will wind up with some of what I said if you are serious about live, dynamic, sound. You can also look up BD Sound in the Netherlands for some more good ideas. Also look up Dr. Bruce Edgar's Titan speaker system. Buy right and cry once is what my father once told me !!! Good luck in your search.
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Old 24th October 2018, 06:35 PM   #34
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
I think horns will help you reaching that special "live sound" since most (if not all) live speakers are horn based, even the bass. Although with decent amps and alone the environment.. you get better sound quality of course.
FWIW, in the live sound world, almost all HF units are horn-loaded.
For the rest of the bands, direct-radiating is probably the most common.
There are examples of mostly horn-loaded systems (see Nexo Alpha for example), but they have largely been replaced by line arrays, for better or for worse.
There are still companies out there using horns (see Danley Sound Labs), but they're in the minority.

I'd guess that over 90% of PA speakers have a horn-loaded HF driver and a direct-radiating midbass in the 10-15" range.

Chris
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Old 24th October 2018, 08:03 PM   #35
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Hi Chris, well, yeeeaaahhsss. I went to some festivals here recently and was also attending the Jean Michel Jarre concert at our famous stadium used for live performances. All speakers I saw were horns, either the folded horns (bass, midbass) or midranges.. everything. I was in the 3rd row on the ground in the very middle of the arena but couldn't see plain drivers facing the crowd or at least any back loaded horns.. there were huge horizontal ones beneath and in front of the stage and medium ones at the sides like modular towers.. upper midrange and tweeters hung up in a somewhat bent vertical tower formation in the air.

On the other hand, Thievery Corporation about 5-6 years ago on a summer festival's main stage - there I saw plenty of crowd facing woofers too stacked onto eachother.

I think it's a mixed thing nowadays and of course lots of venues are also building from good-old stuff and also maybe mixes them. I've seen both versions.
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Old 24th October 2018, 08:38 PM   #36
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonfazer View Post
However, as I mentioned, you cannot understand how will a speaker actualy sound from specs without listening to it. And it is not really about SPL, it is something else. The "size" of the sound.
Hmm interesting setup. Interesting thoughts. Maybe you can re-think some things (or not) based on my next design. You're just walking a somewhat different way and I like that to be honest - at least from mindset-wise You go the experience way, buying-trying-selling and cycle begins again 'til good, I rather try to plan everything on paper first (and then I might also ditch the whole stuff for sg else)

But taking care of SPL is not a stupid thing: sound pressure is of biggest priority our ear is focusing on. Everything else comes behind that, like directivity, distortion, etc. So SPL should be somewhat flat. (I'm doing an underline here 'cause some people believe a very flat system might sound very sterile - I see different opinions about this on the internet, but I'm pretty sure it's not worth going into heavy discussions about this, it's just like many things in the audio world, a question of TASTE. When you listen to a lot of different systems on audio shows, friends, etc, slowly you can get a grasp of what you would like to achieve.. which kind of sound you like more and which less).

Oookay, so here it is. I'm building (1 side here) with following intentions:

- 1x RCF LF21X451 woofer, 21". Original choice was the Dayton PA460-8 but I'm going sometimes home theater too (with this stereo set) and then some extra power handling is always nice.
- 4x Faital Pro 6FE100 midranges. Flat response almost like a ruler in the freq. region I need. When looking for a good midrange, keep in mind: +/- 3dB deviation on the curve means 1/2 or 2x amplifier power. That's already big .. with DSP and a mic you can make any driver sound flat, but I'm not sure I want to correct big when I can achieve almost the same on a native/natural way with a good midrange selection.
- 1x Aurum Cantus AST25120 AMT tweeter. I LOVE ribbon-like sound but these don't even need a transformer. Hell, why not. They'll have separate box too so swap is easy if I'm not satisfied.

My considerations were:
- possibility of passive drive with 1 stereo amp and passive XO while 6 monoblocks are being built (it takes time while having a normal 8-hours work, family, etc.)
- enough power reserve for the bass region when I switch on some minor bass lift in "movie mode"
- some load sharing in midrange region and +6dB gain from ca. 91dB (1 driver) to ca. 97dB (4 drivers, 2 in series then these in parallel) which then almost match the woofer at the crossover point..
- ..and they match the tweeter too (tweeter is ~97dB at 2kHz).

Small deviances are possible and expected, due to box mainly but also due to manufacturer data (but I think these are mostly valid values), these can be corrected via gain easily. Room EQ is a different thing.. first I'm trying to achieve a somewhat acceptable flat response in 'free air' and then fine-tune with DPS, including room and the small dip mentioned by Paul McGowan (PS Audio) from ca. 800Hz to 1.5kHz.

- 1st XO around 125-150Hz (rather 125 I think but real life will show). Mark Knopfler should mostly sing from the midranges already (he will still slip onto the woofer a bit, therefore 125Hz XO is better for me)..
- 2nd XO around 2k, I start rolling off the midranges quickly before their ~3.2kHz lift while starting the sweeet tweeter at the same time already.

4th order Linkwitz-Riley model, 24dB/oct slopes, no overload danger on the tweeter, at least I won't crank up the system to the absolute maximum. I dare to stress the woofer, the midranges, the worst thing as I've seen is increased distortion This is good hardcore PA stuff, they don't burn that easy. And I'm not going mad anyway.. However, the tweeter will be protected, they are capable of 100W@1kHz crossed with 12dB/oct., I'll employ 2kHz XO and steep slope (4th order) so despite some possible (?) manufacturer polished information .. I hope the best to survive with them at decent medium power too. And I plan to use the system normally at fractions of it's maximum SPL capability anyway (I think I'll limit that at master volume control side too, so a "maximum" volume setting won't be the real max yet but at around ~80%).

Bass amps: Class D Hypex UcD2k running on toroid linear PSUs.
Midrange: Class AB tube amps, parallell pushpull, KT88 tubes, smooth drive, long life. Not sure if I want those new, less-reliable KT150s.
Tweeter: Class AB Mosfets

I'm not saying this is a perfect setup, nobody has such (yet) but crazy enough for sure, fun to plan, fun to think about obstacles and trying to avoid them (e.g. midrange Fs and impedance peak which is below the 1st crossover frequency, luckily.. better to avoid it completely than living with it so tube amps with low feedback and low damping factor have an easy job to drive midranges at stable-flat impedances while class D doesn't care woofer impedance peak much).

Take what you want from these considerations.. focus is exactly on these to-be-considered things, not on the gear or drivers themselves. And I cannot say it will work until I heard it. But cannot state the opposite either
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Old 13th November 2018, 02:50 PM   #37
Antonfazer is offline Antonfazer  Sweden
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Thanks everyone for replies!

Some updates. Last weeks were quite busy, but I managed to do some more prototyping and listening. I acquired locally a pair of 2220H in extremely good condition, which was a found. Also I did go for Renkus-Heinz SSD3301 2" compression drivers with original CBH820 horns.

So after playing round with them I liked the SSD3301 for midrange, but it definitely needs a tweeter and lacks clarity above 5-6k. The best combination was achieved with Illuminator silk dome tweeter taking over at about 5k when running active. For passive crossover it is certainly not an option due to sensitivity. So I am looking for a solution for HF unit, either a bullet tweeter or a small horn with CD.

I have some concerns about the 820 horn. Even when equalized it still produces unpleasant honkyness, especially noticeable on more complex music styles. Open for suggestions here, horns is not my cup of tea yet.

And the most interesting, the woofers. I compared the k130 to 2220H in a BR box of about 100 liters. Woofers were played from 80-100 to about 1k crossed to a subwoofer and a CD. The 2220 showed a little higher sensitivity and is lightning fast in midbass. However, it lacks a lot of musicality and it does not integrate well with the enclosure due to low Q (measured 0.15). I thought it should not be an issue since the driver will only play from 90 hz or so, but I was wrong. The 2220 also has a nasty midrange response above 400-500 hz I did not like and the k130 doe not have. So after quite a lot of listening and comparison I liked the k130 more. So I will stick to the k130 in this project I think. Perhaps I will cut out the middle part of the aluminum dust cap and replace with a cloth one to smooth out the response on HF.

One more goodie, the amp for subwoofer arrived, it is Alto Mistral 6000, 27 kg monster. I thought 700W+ RMS into 8 ohm will be too much for my Beymas 18lx60, but it actually turned out to be a perfect match. Bass is tremendous even with 1 woofer in open air. Very quick and dynamic! In H-frames should be a killer. I plan to tweak the amp a little by recaping and playing with operation amps, but it is good for bass even as it is.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:41 PM   #38
Antonfazer is offline Antonfazer  Sweden
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Since my current vision of the concept is a different compared to the beginning, it has been moved here:


3 way full scale home system, pt.II
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