One of the greatest minds on the planet is already one of the most open and sharing people here:
Sonics by Joachim Gerhard cabinets and kits.
I have been building speakers for 25 years, tried the best drivers, most of the types of speakers out there, I built horns, open baffles, 2way, 3way and the most difficult part was to get my wife to accept the ugly MDF boxes IN the house
Speaker design is a real art but it is tough to please everybody because even the best speaker sounds different in different rooms.
Measuring equipment is expensive, knowledge how to use it even more so. One of the most extraordinary experiences with speakers was the Linkwitz Pluto and later the LXmini. Impossibly ugly but if you set it up right and close your eyes - man, all theory and all I thought I knew simply vanished.
It is not as easy as it looks. Good drivers are pretty expensive and high sensitivity which we all love is even more difficult to pull of. When I move to a house which will allow me to build something like the JBL4367 I will end the quest
And it took 70 years and some millions in R&D to develop a speaker that sounds decent...
Perhaps it would have made sense to set up a poll in such a way that we won't need to discuss it much further than that. A woofer brand like Peerless SLS or cheaper like GRS, depending what people may have more faith in. 2 woofers in a force canceling mode, maybe a waveguided tweeter. This forum should make profit of it and offer such a kit that majority would gladly have it , meaning very good performance and economic enough, tube amp friendly.
Agreed on something like Peerless XLS or SLS series because of their good reputation, something like Peerless 12 xls has 90DB SPL and FS of 21.5Hz, can go really low without a huge cab and breaking the bank!
I agree on a poll, that s a good idea, not sure how many polls we can add to a single thread tho, maybe a mod can answer that if we can have more than one poll.
send your candidate drivers to start a poll.
I raise these :
SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6
Morel MW 1254
Peerless 830500 12" XLS
I agree on a poll, that s a good idea, not sure how many polls we can add to a single thread tho, maybe a mod can answer that if we can have more than one poll.
send your candidate drivers to start a poll.
I raise these :
SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6
Morel MW 1254
Peerless 830500 12" XLS
Nice idea to create such speaker. I am prepared to give maximal support to the project.
From my side I can offer a complete design on paper. Once the drivers are chosen, the system defined and the cabinet dimensions known, I am able to simulate the speaker completely in Leap. Deliverables can be a passive filter schematic or a digital filter with biquads to implement in a digital processing platform like there are miniDSP, Hypex and others. All plots of SPL, power, impedance, polar responses, it is all possible to simulate. To start with I can use the driver supplier specifications. Later on measurements of people that want to built it, can be used of course also. I will follow the topic and see what I can add to it.
It is possible to design different filter concepts that can chosen like there are LR2, LR4, B1, B2, B3, elliptical filters,...
Some idea for the concept. Maybe making it not too complex, a classical three way. Woofer 10 to 12 inch in closed box; midrange: 5 to 7 inch; tweeter 1 inch dome. Just an idea.
Paul
From my side I can offer a complete design on paper. Once the drivers are chosen, the system defined and the cabinet dimensions known, I am able to simulate the speaker completely in Leap. Deliverables can be a passive filter schematic or a digital filter with biquads to implement in a digital processing platform like there are miniDSP, Hypex and others. All plots of SPL, power, impedance, polar responses, it is all possible to simulate. To start with I can use the driver supplier specifications. Later on measurements of people that want to built it, can be used of course also. I will follow the topic and see what I can add to it.
It is possible to design different filter concepts that can chosen like there are LR2, LR4, B1, B2, B3, elliptical filters,...
Some idea for the concept. Maybe making it not too complex, a classical three way. Woofer 10 to 12 inch in closed box; midrange: 5 to 7 inch; tweeter 1 inch dome. Just an idea.
Paul
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Nice to have you on board Paul.
I also like the idea of a simple classic 3 way, you can't go wrong with that.
if everybody agree i m gonna add a poll to decide what kind of speaker we are going to start with:
2 way, 3 way or FAST.
maybe also a poll to go with classic design or horn loaded ?
after that would be to choose the drivers for each section.
everybody ok with this ?
maybe we can have a moderator on board as well to see if we can change the thread name or something to attract more people to participate ?
I also like the idea of a simple classic 3 way, you can't go wrong with that.
if everybody agree i m gonna add a poll to decide what kind of speaker we are going to start with:
2 way, 3 way or FAST.
maybe also a poll to go with classic design or horn loaded ?
after that would be to choose the drivers for each section.
everybody ok with this ?
maybe we can have a moderator on board as well to see if we can change the thread name or something to attract more people to participate ?
Part of the confusion in the previous attempt was the name "Reference." That conjures up the idea that it's the finest we have to offer, the coup de gras, and by which all others would be judged. Indeed, a clear criteria from the onset is key to success.
I envision this as the loudspeaker equivalent of an old AR XA turntable or a Lotus Seven- It should be a solid, basic, easy to build design that will work very well with a modest investment of time and money. A platform that is easy to tweak, personalize, upgrade or hotrod at the time of building, or later down the road after they've become less exciting.
For a wider audience, and to encourage more of those who lurk without building, the woodwork should be as simple as possible and require few tools. Perhaps a design that could be built sealed or vented using the same set of drivers and basic filter topology.
As this is DIY, those with means can make it as complicated as they want, but please don't leave out the average Joe who is really curious, can't spend big money, and just needs the right kind of nudge to spur him on.
It would be cool to end up with a modest series of loudspeakers with different attributes under the diyAudio guise. Look to PassDIY and how Papa's freeware designs have evolved over the years for inspiration. They have been successful for a reason.
I envision this as the loudspeaker equivalent of an old AR XA turntable or a Lotus Seven- It should be a solid, basic, easy to build design that will work very well with a modest investment of time and money. A platform that is easy to tweak, personalize, upgrade or hotrod at the time of building, or later down the road after they've become less exciting.
For a wider audience, and to encourage more of those who lurk without building, the woodwork should be as simple as possible and require few tools. Perhaps a design that could be built sealed or vented using the same set of drivers and basic filter topology.
As this is DIY, those with means can make it as complicated as they want, but please don't leave out the average Joe who is really curious, can't spend big money, and just needs the right kind of nudge to spur him on.
It would be cool to end up with a modest series of loudspeakers with different attributes under the diyAudio guise. Look to PassDIY and how Papa's freeware designs have evolved over the years for inspiration. They have been successful for a reason.
It would. No way diyAudio can compete against these guys with a typical 2 or 3-way speaker. It would need to be special.
What speakers here at diyAudio have been very successful?
I can’t speak for multiways but for FRs, the Frugel-Horn Mk3 has to be a contender with somewhere north of 1,000 pairs having been built so far. And with a complete family now, it is accelerating. Lots of room for customization including adapting to the room. And the sound of the speaker can be quite different by changing the driver used. As well, the Frugel-Horn XL leads to donations to the forum.
WAW are becoming a growing segment of the market, but are scarce on the ground at the regular kit sources. So that is a possibility. Even with a passive XO design provided would increase the number of systems with multiple amplifiers and line level XOs.
2 or 3-way? It can’t be common or easily available elsewhere.
dave
Maybe no one noticed, but this is the most important post in this thread. Truth.
If we keep it to two my choice for the small unit would be a dual 15" system with the lower unit being an Altec 406 (or equivalent) and the top being a 604-8H. It's a version of a Stanley screamer. Not the end all but pretty darn good.
The large unit is, uh... bigger.
Do we see what the problem is here concerning the need for different systems? Can we possibly have a 'diyAudio' system? How many systems are needed? My guess is about 100. If you think I'm kidding, Google "best loudspeaker"
Is it maybe better to go to the many sites out there made for just such a pre-designed system?
You guys decide, I already have.
Cheers.
The large unit is, uh... bigger.
Do we see what the problem is here concerning the need for different systems? Can we possibly have a 'diyAudio' system? How many systems are needed? My guess is about 100. If you think I'm kidding, Google "best loudspeaker"
Is it maybe better to go to the many sites out there made for just such a pre-designed system?
You guys decide, I already have.
Cheers.
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I would think that every one here is looking at a monitor of some sort. Why not use the brain trust on this sight to design a set of speakers to be used next to those screens. They would have to be small not expensive and getting them to sound good would challenge us to use all ideas with equal value. I would love to see a 3" folded horn with a 3/4" tweeter with a wave guide fit into a box with a 5"x9" face to sit next to my monitor. I just think that if the parameters are kept small even those without woodworking or cad skills will get involved. We do not know if the next great designer is lurking here just waiting for a way in. This project would be hard to get started at the Asylum or AK but here were DIY.
This thread had me laughing...
Let me ask you: should there be just one amplifier offered on DIYaudio? Some people like low powered singled ended tube amps. Some people want class-A semi based amps. Some people want 100WPC@8Ohm stereo semi based amps. Some people want class-D super high efficiency. Some people want class-D high power amps for subwoofers. Etc etc etc.
No one size fits all.
The same is true for speakers. Sure, you can offer ONE DiyAudio speaker. But that will just appeal to one segment of DIYers. Should it be:
Single driver horn-loaded full ranger without any passive components?
Single driver full ranger in a small box with only baffle step compensation?
WOW FAST or whatever = single driver plus woofer for low freq, passive crossover?
WOW FAST or whatever = single driver plus woofer for low freq, passive on the full ranger, active plate amp with crossover on the woofer/sub?
Two way passive, small form factor
Two way passive, slim tower form factor
Three way passive, slim tower form factor
Three way passive, larger tower form factor
High efficiency multi way with PA drivers and CD+horn?
Synergy Horn?
Multi-way with DSP crossover
Open Baffle multi way system?
Unbaffled (nude) OB system?
etc.
I could go on. You see there are many, many types of loudspeakers. Just like amplifiers, one size does NOT fit all.
But you have to start somewhere. It would be nice to see some speaker building efforts here on DIY audio. But there are already web sites with designs such as DIYsoundgroup.com and lots of posts in the Parts-Express Tech Talk forum. So what would be new and different about DIY audio and its efforts at a "DIY group project" loudspeaker?
I think this should be the topic of discussion here. WHAT to design and build FIRST. And then what SECOND. And then THIRD. etc. No need for DIYaudio to supply all the parts, just the design, cabinet info, and where to source the drivers. Keep in mind that not all parts of the world have the same access to driver brands and shipping drivers is typically more expensive than shipping a pack of semiconductors or other amp parts.
I've said my bit. Have fun.
P.S. I think Cal stated more or less the same idea above...
Let me ask you: should there be just one amplifier offered on DIYaudio? Some people like low powered singled ended tube amps. Some people want class-A semi based amps. Some people want 100WPC@8Ohm stereo semi based amps. Some people want class-D super high efficiency. Some people want class-D high power amps for subwoofers. Etc etc etc.
No one size fits all.
The same is true for speakers. Sure, you can offer ONE DiyAudio speaker. But that will just appeal to one segment of DIYers. Should it be:
Single driver horn-loaded full ranger without any passive components?
Single driver full ranger in a small box with only baffle step compensation?
WOW FAST or whatever = single driver plus woofer for low freq, passive crossover?
WOW FAST or whatever = single driver plus woofer for low freq, passive on the full ranger, active plate amp with crossover on the woofer/sub?
Two way passive, small form factor
Two way passive, slim tower form factor
Three way passive, slim tower form factor
Three way passive, larger tower form factor
High efficiency multi way with PA drivers and CD+horn?
Synergy Horn?
Multi-way with DSP crossover
Open Baffle multi way system?
Unbaffled (nude) OB system?
etc.
I could go on. You see there are many, many types of loudspeakers. Just like amplifiers, one size does NOT fit all.
But you have to start somewhere. It would be nice to see some speaker building efforts here on DIY audio. But there are already web sites with designs such as DIYsoundgroup.com and lots of posts in the Parts-Express Tech Talk forum. So what would be new and different about DIY audio and its efforts at a "DIY group project" loudspeaker?
I think this should be the topic of discussion here. WHAT to design and build FIRST. And then what SECOND. And then THIRD. etc. No need for DIYaudio to supply all the parts, just the design, cabinet info, and where to source the drivers. Keep in mind that not all parts of the world have the same access to driver brands and shipping drivers is typically more expensive than shipping a pack of semiconductors or other amp parts.
I've said my bit. Have fun.
P.S. I think Cal stated more or less the same idea above...
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Nice post grumpy old man!
I don't think "diyaudio speaker" is supposed to mean the one, the only, the best ever!! It just means a collaborative speaker project on diyaudio, which has put out very little on the speaker front compared to all the other projects on here.
It's hard to get any group project done and your post is not helpful.
You should know better Charlie. Sorry for public call out, but you've done a lot of great things for the diyaudio community. Why the attitude?
I don't think "diyaudio speaker" is supposed to mean the one, the only, the best ever!! It just means a collaborative speaker project on diyaudio, which has put out very little on the speaker front compared to all the other projects on here.
It's hard to get any group project done and your post is not helpful.
You should know better Charlie. Sorry for public call out, but you've done a lot of great things for the diyaudio community. Why the attitude?
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Start with requirements, those that determine how it sounds first.
Radiation Pattern: omni, forward wide, [forward narrow], cardiod
Nonlinear Distortion: THD 0.1% at 90 dB ... 100 dB?
Linear Distortion (no ringing, fast decay waterfall or burst decay)
Max SPL: 110 dB
Frequency Range: 20 - 20,000 Hz +/- 1 dB
Phase range +/- 10 degrees
Less important stuff that determines compatibility
Size
weight
Impedance 4 ohm, 8 ohm what ever
Efficiency 85 dB, 90 dB what ever
Modern: multi amp, dsp crossover
60's, 70's 80' Nostalgia: Passive crossover, Tube amp compatible
Radiation Pattern: omni, forward wide, [forward narrow], cardiod
Nonlinear Distortion: THD 0.1% at 90 dB ... 100 dB?
Linear Distortion (no ringing, fast decay waterfall or burst decay)
Max SPL: 110 dB
Frequency Range: 20 - 20,000 Hz +/- 1 dB
Phase range +/- 10 degrees
Less important stuff that determines compatibility
Size
weight
Impedance 4 ohm, 8 ohm what ever
Efficiency 85 dB, 90 dB what ever
Modern: multi amp, dsp crossover
60's, 70's 80' Nostalgia: Passive crossover, Tube amp compatible
yeah that would be nice to build the one and only speaker you ever need and stop right there, says no DIYer ever.
this is not going anywhere, we have more haters than supporters ! no one said it's gonna be the one and only speaker we ever gonna need and it will please everyone ! do we have the one and only amp we ever need ?!
this could be fun, but unfortunately more experienced guys are rather bashing the idea ( wrong idea even ! ) than actually help, it was not necessary had to go to DIY store or be the one and only version, the idea WAS to see what this community can offer if we put the minds together!
all the statements are true at some point but truth be told I m a bit tired if people going the extra mile just to prove it s not gonna work. I don't think it is what this is about, I would be happy just learning a thing or two.
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