Thus morel looks really nice but expensive https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/EM1308.pdf
Will see how it models
Will see how it models
I recommend any good quality 2" dome midrange and those from Visaton and Morel fall in that category. There is this new product, could be worth investigating. I myself have vintage Dynaudio D52AF dome mids, and none of the cones managed to reach that sound quality, so I have figured anyway.
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Now, you guys have got me thinking again 
Rss210hf-4 in a 30l/1cuft rectangular box approx 10’ x 10’ x 22’ (22mm MDT plus internal bracing) then......
Option A - based on the tweeter and a 2” dome mid being sealed anyway, just open baffle them on top or ....
Option B - put them in pipes on top to make it look a bit funkier, I guess if I used flexiply I could make the bass into a cylinder aswell. No baffle, may be interesting.
Hmmmmmm. Simple build, still use the plate amp, looks a bit different, another thing to add to the list of ideas.
Post #16 Cylindrical Speakers
Rss210hf-4 in a 30l/1cuft rectangular box approx 10’ x 10’ x 22’ (22mm MDT plus internal bracing) then......
Option A - based on the tweeter and a 2” dome mid being sealed anyway, just open baffle them on top or ....
Option B - put them in pipes on top to make it look a bit funkier, I guess if I used flexiply I could make the bass into a cylinder aswell. No baffle, may be interesting.
Hmmmmmm. Simple build, still use the plate amp, looks a bit different, another thing to add to the list of ideas.
Post #16 Cylindrical Speakers
Been trawling through spec sheets again and putting aside the mid for now looks like the satori Mw19p-8 and the 18w8531 will provide similar bass extension in a 35-40l (1.35cuft ish) vented box (2”x5” port). The satori is slightly more efficient but rolls off a little quicker.
Given this will be used up to around 5-700hz, any views an the difference in sound characteristics between the two?
Given this will be used up to around 5-700hz, any views an the difference in sound characteristics between the two?
That is nice combo of domes. I used much cheaper HiVi. I believe no longer available. It yielded great sounding speakers.
Hivi domes
It is hard to give reasonable advice given these are expensive midwoofers designed for 2 ways and you want a woofer for a 3 way. You would be far better off finding a woofer to act as a woofer AFTER you have determined the configuration of the speaker and hence know the required parameters for the woofer.
Having said that... The quality of sound heard below the Schroeder frequency is determined more by the room response than the speaker response. This means that quality of the drivers at the low frequency end boils down to essentially how loud the drivers can play cleanly. Since you are opting for tiny drivers and ones that have exchanged some of the large deflection low frequency performance of a woofer in order to improve small deflection midrange performance both drivers offer at best modest performance at the low frequency end. In the middle of their passband where you are choosing to low pass filter them they will be working pretty close to optimally with likely nothing to choose between them. A cheaper standard range 6.5" midwoofer is likely to perform pretty much the same whereas a 6.5" woofer, if you can find one, and, particularly, a pair of 6.5" woofers will perform better.
Andy19191, thanks for the comments, much appreciated.
So, you are saying the two driver are wasted just using them for the lower octaves as they are designed more for mid range performance even though they seem to go lower than pretty much all 6.5-7” woofers in a 1.3cuft bo.
Do you have any suggestions for 6.5” drivers that I can get for, say under $100 each, so I can double up and will give me sub 35hz f3 within 0.6 -07cuft?
Alternatively the rss210hf-4 or possible the 23mfcl45-8 could be single 8” driver that ar dedicate suns? Thoughts?
So, you are saying the two driver are wasted just using them for the lower octaves as they are designed more for mid range performance even though they seem to go lower than pretty much all 6.5-7” woofers in a 1.3cuft bo.
Do you have any suggestions for 6.5” drivers that I can get for, say under $100 each, so I can double up and will give me sub 35hz f3 within 0.6 -07cuft?
Alternatively the rss210hf-4 or possible the 23mfcl45-8 could be single 8” driver that ar dedicate suns? Thoughts?
They are not designed more for midrange but to be both woofer and midrange which means they perform neither as well as drivers that are designed to be only a woofer or a midrange.
Small drivers with a reasonable efficiency and a low frequency extension using ports usually achieve this by having too large a gap between the port resonance and the box resonance. Playing quietly the frequency response will look good (in an anechoic chamber) but playing at standard levels (small drivers cannot do loud at low frequencies) the cone displacement will be OK around the two resonances but between them where they don't support each other the output will be distorted due to too large a required displacement. And this will be in a significantly more important frequency range for music than sub 35 Hz.
To get a feel for what is a reasonable low frequency extension for a pair of 6.5" woofers in a 1.5 ft^3 ported cabinet I would suggest looking at some well designed commercial examples. This one for example has -6dB at 42 Hz.
Off the shelf 6.5" woofers are rare because the cone area is too small to do the job. Looking at the Scan-Speak range they offer one 6.5" woofer in 4 and 8 ohm versions (£250 each unfortunately) with the rest being midwoofers. In the SB Acoustic range the smallest woofers are 8". In truth I have never looked at woofers as small as 6.5" and am not familiar with what is available. Someone earlier mentioned the Anarchy which at $66 is well within budget and at first glance looks like a woofer but I have not looked closely. May not be easily available in Europe?
I was not sure from your earlier post where you mention DSP whether you are using active or passive crossovers? If passive a single low efficiency subwoofer will create efficiency and baffle step correction issues.
My main thought is that you need to sort out the configuration of the speaker before choosing drivers. How are you going to handle baffle step correction? How many woofers are you going to use? Are you going to use a 2" or a 4" midrange. Conventionally or as a filler driver? A small ribbon crossing high or a 1" dome crossing lower? Beamwidths and waveguides? Etc...
A second thought is that if you opt for a sub 35 Hz anechoic chamber low frequency response using small drivers it will come at a significant cost in terms of sound quality listening to heavy metal music at standard levels.
My plan is to use the Hypex Fusion FA123 or 253 plate amps.
These are three way active boards with Ncore hypex amp modules and a built in dsp, the FA253 is 2x250w + 1X100w tweeter and the FA123 is 2x125w plus the same tweeter channel. They have 15 biquads per channel and can be set up as master and slave plus three preset filters so could have one totally flat (anachoic), one flat plus room eq, and one with a bit of bass and treble boost (smiley face profile) or 20-20khz gentle 6db slope.
Hypex Electronics B.V.
So, differences in efficiency and also delay can be sorted with the dsp as well as crossover and the odd notch for basic room eq.
These are three way active boards with Ncore hypex amp modules and a built in dsp, the FA253 is 2x250w + 1X100w tweeter and the FA123 is 2x125w plus the same tweeter channel. They have 15 biquads per channel and can be set up as master and slave plus three preset filters so could have one totally flat (anachoic), one flat plus room eq, and one with a bit of bass and treble boost (smiley face profile) or 20-20khz gentle 6db slope.
Hypex Electronics B.V.
So, differences in efficiency and also delay can be sorted with the dsp as well as crossover and the odd notch for basic room eq.
Been reading this through again and slowly converging on a solution.
Then I spotted an option that I had missed, the Anarchy 6.5” woofer. (Thanks to those who pointed it out and sorry I missed it).
Anarchy 7 inch woofer by Denovo Audio
The 8ohm version are out of stock but if they were to come back in then these may be a good candidate in a 2x6.5. + 4cone/2dome + 1 tweeter. The various things I have read suggest they work in a 14-20l vented box, have very good excursion, and look good for a 300-700hz crossover (may be higher), and even taking into account shipping and tax they are a reasonable price.
The various online calculators give an f3 of 31hz in a 20l box with a 2”x7.5” port. So two of these in parallel (4ohm) with two ports in a 40l box would go nicely with my ideas. Just need to keep an eye out when they come back in stock or there is a group buy.
Now onto the mid? One question is, most mids, particularly cone ones have a fairly low max power rating (30-50w), here comes the noob question - if I am using a plate amp with 125w x 2 plus 100w tweeter modules then the bass drivers will be ok with 125w but will I blow the mids if I go over say half volume, or is it a demand scenario?
Then I spotted an option that I had missed, the Anarchy 6.5” woofer. (Thanks to those who pointed it out and sorry I missed it).
Anarchy 7 inch woofer by Denovo Audio
The 8ohm version are out of stock but if they were to come back in then these may be a good candidate in a 2x6.5. + 4cone/2dome + 1 tweeter. The various things I have read suggest they work in a 14-20l vented box, have very good excursion, and look good for a 300-700hz crossover (may be higher), and even taking into account shipping and tax they are a reasonable price.
The various online calculators give an f3 of 31hz in a 20l box with a 2”x7.5” port. So two of these in parallel (4ohm) with two ports in a 40l box would go nicely with my ideas. Just need to keep an eye out when they come back in stock or there is a group buy.
Now onto the mid? One question is, most mids, particularly cone ones have a fairly low max power rating (30-50w), here comes the noob question - if I am using a plate amp with 125w x 2 plus 100w tweeter modules then the bass drivers will be ok with 125w but will I blow the mids if I go over say half volume, or is it a demand scenario?
I think I have settled on two 6.5” given the advice above and the Anarchy’s look good in a small box so just have to wait for another batch to be made.
I guess the 3 way is just a personal preference, my ears tend to like speakers where the crossovers are outside the 1.5k-3.5k sensitive region. So having a mid crossed over at say 400-4000hz suit my listening. Examples that I likes are Kef 104/2 with crossovers ar 150 and 3khz (regret selling those for pocket money!) and the pmc OB1 with 380hz and 3800hz.
I guess the 3 way is just a personal preference, my ears tend to like speakers where the crossovers are outside the 1.5k-3.5k sensitive region. So having a mid crossed over at say 400-4000hz suit my listening. Examples that I likes are Kef 104/2 with crossovers ar 150 and 3khz (regret selling those for pocket money!) and the pmc OB1 with 380hz and 3800hz.
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I understand, but why not use 10 inc or 12 inch bass. 2 x 6.5 inch is not enough bass, you need a sub, and still pretty limited SPL wise
My room is pretty small 10’ x 10’ with 8’ ceilings so don’t need huge amounts of bass, my Mackie HR824 actives make plenty (sometimes too much) and they are rated at 37hz F3 (I believe they use the Vifa P17 8” woofer in a sealed box with a passive radiator on the rear). I have tried both my 10” subs with them (wharfedale sw150 bottom ported and B&W asw810 closed box) and if I get them anything more than just audible it excites the room. ( note room modification is not on the table here, WAF).
I also have limited space so a tall thin (c230mm wide) floorstander is what I am aiming for at around 40l or less therefore 6-7” speakers.
Finally, the music I listen to need bass speed and punch not necessarily volume or sub frequencies.
I also have limited space so a tall thin (c230mm wide) floorstander is what I am aiming for at around 40l or less therefore 6-7” speakers.
Finally, the music I listen to need bass speed and punch not necessarily volume or sub frequencies.
If you need examples of the sort of bass I am looking to portray here are a tune that need very fast and punch bass, clear mids and good top end otherwise the bass guitar and double kick drums just become a mush and the percussion get too harsh or veiled.
Gojira - In the Forest from Terra Incognita - starts fairly standard then the drop comes at 1.10, also worth noting is that the definition of the drums are very good - ride on the left, high hat on the right, snare in the middle. Also if you get to 3.38 it changes down with more harshness and from 5.40 there are some unusual fades of the drums whilst there is interplay with left and right guitars. Nice test track for metal that shows up fast bass, clean guitar mids and if you match that with the cymbals being natural then that is what I am looking for.
Gojira - In the Forest from Terra Incognita - starts fairly standard then the drop comes at 1.10, also worth noting is that the definition of the drums are very good - ride on the left, high hat on the right, snare in the middle. Also if you get to 3.38 it changes down with more harshness and from 5.40 there are some unusual fades of the drums whilst there is interplay with left and right guitars. Nice test track for metal that shows up fast bass, clean guitar mids and if you match that with the cymbals being natural then that is what I am looking for.
bass speed has nothing to do with driver size.
and punch with 6.5 inch woofers is not possible really without trade off.
Id at least go with a 10 inch or 2x8 inch if you want anything resembling "real" bass
and 6.5 inch are really limited in extension. just makes no sense unless your severely waf limited.
I would seriously reconsider the whole 6.5 inch bass. 6.5 inch are not woofers, even 8 inch is small. go dual 8 inch as a minimum, but id go dual 10 inch
and punch with 6.5 inch woofers is not possible really without trade off.
Id at least go with a 10 inch or 2x8 inch if you want anything resembling "real" bass
and 6.5 inch are really limited in extension. just makes no sense unless your severely waf limited.
I would seriously reconsider the whole 6.5 inch bass. 6.5 inch are not woofers, even 8 inch is small. go dual 8 inch as a minimum, but id go dual 10 inch
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Ugg- the Anarchy pair will be aplenty, no worries. This business of needing multiple 8" drivers or at least a 10" is really misleading, and not really accurate.
I heard a pair of Anarchy in a small floor-stander back in November, and that thing was crazy good, and extended very low and cleanly too.
I built a set of towers with the W6-1139 awhile back, and these 6.5" gave me a vented F3 of around 25 Hz. Sure- it needed more power to get to a moderate level, but it still was just awesome what it was capable of.
Those who have not experienced any of these: DCS165, Anarchy6, W6-1139, W6-2100, 830946; have not experienced the best of what 6.5" bass has to offer.
Later,
Wolf
I heard a pair of Anarchy in a small floor-stander back in November, and that thing was crazy good, and extended very low and cleanly too.
I built a set of towers with the W6-1139 awhile back, and these 6.5" gave me a vented F3 of around 25 Hz. Sure- it needed more power to get to a moderate level, but it still was just awesome what it was capable of.
Those who have not experienced any of these: DCS165, Anarchy6, W6-1139, W6-2100, 830946; have not experienced the best of what 6.5" bass has to offer.
Later,
Wolf
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