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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 12th June 2018, 02:16 AM   #21
Diogenes is offline Diogenes  United States
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Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
lots of music has content below 26hz.

If you listen to electronic, 10hz is not uncommon.
it is felt and create a presence hard to describe, removing it remove a vital element in the experience.

you do not think there is energy down there till you have a system that can do it and realize how much you missed all those years...

to have the effect, one have to listen bit loud, human ear can't hear 20hz unless it is at least ~80db (as per research on ear sensitivity)
since subsonic content is often 20 decibel down in the recording, one have to listen to 100db or so to get the intended effect...
Very much so. It's a bit like a tweeter. Sure, you don't need it to understand there is music being heard, but it enhances the realism of the experience. Real music, in person, has a great deal of low end content that tends to be forgotten when the primary mode of consumption is hearing through PA stacks (filtered for the sake of logistics) or albums that are recorded for the lowest common denominator of playback system. Getting a good sub going in my system after years of relegating it to home theater purposes was most enlightening when I played my first good recording and realized how much more real the experience felt; the instruments finally had body that put them in the room rather than sounding like something played through a radio. It's too bad that we overlook that element considering as audio enthusiasts we don't let the dictates of pop recordings determine what we do with our setups else we'd be listening to Beats Pills and calling it good.

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Originally Posted by Bare View Post
Without mentioning that Human hearing is close to non existent at that level... ie; down 60db at 20 hz.
More than pointless ...despite all Brochure babbles and shills.
That really should go without mention since it's misleading for you to say that. Repeating misinformation does not make it reality. Let's see what those ol' PhDs have to say about what the ear actually hears:

-18-figure20-1-png

-14-figure15-1-png

Ah, interesting. Actual research shows audibility at realistic levels for live music, that infrasound is heard far before it's felt and that as the sound level approaches that of music playback, the lowest frequencies draw closer to parity with midrange and, most interestingly, small increases (once above background body noise) sound significantly louder than the rest of the audio band. So, if you can reproduce the lowest frequencies at musically important levels as encountered in real life, they contribute to the listening experience.

This research, however, is SPL based. Other papers (that I can't find the article for at the moment, frustratingly, and that I had saved on my dead computer, not this one) indicates that the ear starting at 100Hz and significantly below 40Hz becomes dominated by particle velocity level over sound pressure in the sound intensity equation. That PVL sensitivity at low frequencies produces nerve impulses upwards of ten times the intensity such that, in one case, the in ear canal sound pressure sensor was registering negligible readings at the bottom of the transducer sweep while the probe on the nerve was showing some of the highest readings of the run. So, the contour curves may not be wholly representative given that they are only derived from sensors measuring only half of what's going on at the lower bass frequencies.

It's too bad the shills for speakers that can not reproduce low frequencies have had so much sway in what's taken as common wisdom in this hobby. Just earlier I was reading an article from '51 by Klipsch that touched on the 50Hz argument (and another of that vintage that put it up as high as 200Hz!) and the fallacy of it. All these decades later and people are still the same figuring if something's hard, it mustn't matter. It strikes me as intellectual laziness.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:34 AM   #22
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Originally Posted by Best Hi End View Post
Hi Guys, I intend to build 4 way active horn speaker
Push-Pull Slot-Loaded woofers have a directivity index closer to a horn than a typical constructed box woofer. Ported and sealed design info on this thread. An interesting woofer design which can integrate well with a horn, not a 20Hz super subwoofer.

A Thread for those interested in PPSL enclosures
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:18 AM   #23
kazap is offline kazap  Australia
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
.......That PVL sensitivity at low frequencies produces nerve impulses upwards of ten times the intensity such that, in one case, the in ear canal sound pressure sensor was registering negligible readings at the bottom of the transducer sweep while the probe on the nerve was showing some of the highest readings of the run. So, the contour curves may not be wholly representative given that they are only derived from sensors measuring only half of what's going on at the lower bass frequencies.....
I wonder if that explains the epidemic of permanent hearing loss in the generation exposed to dance and electronic music that creates those delicious massive low frequency visceral vibes?

Its a bit ironic when so many have put so much money and time into enjoying beats that has sent them partially deaf.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:45 AM   #24
Diogenes is offline Diogenes  United States
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I wonder if that explains the epidemic of permanent hearing loss in the generation exposed to dance and electronic music that creates those delicious massive low frequency visceral vibes?
Interesting question. The articles I've seen on that, though, have attributed it more to headphone/earbud wearing having become so prevalent among the youth since the iPod and smartphones made listening to music and being seen listening to music everywhere so much a personal statement and downright fashion choice courtesy Apple's advertisement campaign focusing on those white earbuds of theirs. Seems some of the younger generation never take theirs out/headphones off if they can help it and it's difficult to gauge how loud music is being listened to after awhile when so isolated from external cues.
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:23 AM   #25
kazap is offline kazap  Australia
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
.......The articles I've seen on that, though, have attributed it more to headphone/earbud wearing..
Yep, that makes total sense and completely explains the hearing loss epidemic amongst the young. Thanks.

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).... Stereo Integrity .. custom 24" units .... to use in some open baffle speakers I'm getting around to building at a glacial pace...
That looks like its going to be fun. Do you think OB bass sounds different then pressurising the room with subs? I wonder if OB bass might replicate acoustic instruments well but not be able to do electronic infra-sounds?
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:08 AM   #26
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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I like the pressure thump that sealed cabinet subs can deliver. In a small room it can be unpleasant though at high level. Pressurization happens below room's lowest mode, typically below 30Hz,so it very much depends on room dimensions and wall construction/absorption. Room shape and typical added acoustic panels have no effect. Room's modal analysis/simulation is helpful, to find optimal positiong of speakers and the listener. One must remember to analyze modes in 3D.

More info http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/artic...ss_Figure3.jpg

This means that actually there is no need to make (= eq) the woofer to have straight response to 20Hz in nearfield measurements! We get 3-6dB boost in almost every domestic room at 20Hz.
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Last edited by Juhazi; 12th June 2018 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:49 AM   #27
kazap is offline kazap  Australia
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Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
I like the pressure thump that sealed cabinet subs can deliver... We get 3-6dB boost in almost every domestic room at 20Hz.
Great explanation thanks. Looks like sealed subs rule under 30Hz for electronica thrills. Could p!ss the neighbours off but.


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Check out Fi audio in Las Vegas (made to order in U.S.A).

These guys have excellent subwoofer drivers---mostly geared to car audio but can make almost anything you need. NOT cheap but a quality product.
Nice tip thanks. Fi woofers with 33mm Xmax and looks that are deadly. Made in Les Vegas!
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Last edited by kazap; 12th June 2018 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:16 AM   #28
adason is offline adason  United States
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Flat from 1Hz to 20Hz...
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:47 PM   #29
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Thanks kazap for providing the correct link to the article! Editing was closed when I noticed the mistake I made
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:00 PM   #30
kazap is offline kazap  Australia
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Thanks kazap for providing the correct link to the article! Editing was closed when I noticed the mistake I made

Well thanks to you for the recommendation - its a great article.
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