Best high end if your basing all this on the top loudspeaker from Oswald Mills audio you should know that there is no way that subwoofer reaches 20hz that horn is wayyyyyyyyyyy too small. It has a 21" pro driver in a smallish horn. Real subwoofer horn are huge if they go down to 20-25 hz. I own the Dayton Um18-22 it is a serious sub and in the right cabinet will go low with authority needs power though 800-1000 watts.for pro drivers the BMS 18n862 is a serious contender with extremely low distortion down to the low 20hz.go to data-bass.com for excellent tested results of all the top subwoofers and drivers. I would be very careful and dubious of Oswald Mills audio products to me they seem based on boutique materials and marketing and cashing in on the vintage audio craze and not justifying the astronomical prices.
Mark
Mark
Arrogance is also bliss, apparently.
Did my text, as a reader sounded arrogant to you? Oh well. Wasn't the intend for sure.
I'm digital only. with Jrivers media player, I use a VST pluggin Fabfilter Q2 pro allow 96db/oct brickwall as low as 10hz. few other pluggin would do it. some will be free, fabfilter ain't.
Also, my minidsp 4x10hd would allow 48db/oct down to 10hz. not as steep but enough for the test.
Have a Motu 1248 in the box, need to get this one going ASAP. 4x10hd ain't exactly a statement product (neither the Motu but shall be much better still)
infinite baffle reduce the distortion of a subwoofer driver up to 6x according to my test... Not scientific test but clearly measured. I use to have my system all infinite baffle mounted 4 ways direct radiator. (except tweeter of course, 3 ways were IB)
IB are a royal PITA to implement but it worth it IMHO.
the Mach 5 IXL 18 was CAD350 including delivery. but discontinued, Mach 5 is working on a newer IXL model, to be released. been waiting for 2 years on those... And used, good luck.
Mach 5 do sell a CAD700 UXL18 model with carbon fiber cone and a bit more Xmax but I do not think it's worth twice the price.
Kafimann agree 100%, '80 pop rock has usually no deep bass content, so is Elvis or the Beatles..
I have a friend that wanted me to build him a subwoofer (a dual 18") as I know him well, I've talked him out, he just would not get the benefit on his usual playback level and typical song library...
Markgolf, Databass website suggestion, hallelujah. tough it was out already.
Later
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Thread status
Seems this thread has drifted into no mans land status....
If one were serious about flat in a room at 20 Hz, the first thing we need to know is how loud. I personally think the 20 Hz goal is... well... a bit frivolous, but the design challenge is nice to pursue.
As has been inferred, there are several ways around the barn to achieve this goal.
Physics tell us that you can choose between three realities... but of the three you can only satify two... kind of like particle physics... you have to choose which two mean the most to you. We are back at no free lunch.
The three are enclosure size, efficiency and low end effective cutoff. And.. one needs to add to that, how loud once we have answers to the above questions.
So Best Hi End... How much money do want to commit, how big a room to you want to commit that money to, and how loud do you want to play. With out those key elements, we are into mental masturbation!
Seems this thread has drifted into no mans land status....
If one were serious about flat in a room at 20 Hz, the first thing we need to know is how loud. I personally think the 20 Hz goal is... well... a bit frivolous, but the design challenge is nice to pursue.
As has been inferred, there are several ways around the barn to achieve this goal.
Physics tell us that you can choose between three realities... but of the three you can only satify two... kind of like particle physics... you have to choose which two mean the most to you. We are back at no free lunch.
The three are enclosure size, efficiency and low end effective cutoff. And.. one needs to add to that, how loud once we have answers to the above questions.
So Best Hi End... How much money do want to commit, how big a room to you want to commit that money to, and how loud do you want to play. With out those key elements, we are into mental masturbation!
Can you please recommend some tracks or albums I can listen to for the sub 27Hz listening experience please? Maybe the reason Ive not experienced significant musical benefit that low is that I played tracks without the low music content. Maybe the tracks only had rumble under 40Hz which meant lots of money was spent to reproduce noise and muddy the SNR ?
Can you please recommend some tracks or albums I can listen to for the sub 27Hz listening experience please? Maybe the reason Ive not experienced significant musical benefit that low is that I played tracks without the low music content. Maybe the tracks only had rumble under 40Hz which meant lots of money was spent to reproduce noise and muddy the SNR ?
their list is up to 374 track and keep growing...
Music whit <20Hz bass - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
agree, lots of electronic in their list but they only select "very strong bass content" as opposed to infra-bass a bit lower in intensity but definitively present and included in the mix.
it that would had been the case(lower threshold), they would have over 300,000 song in their list including most classical music, Leonard Cohen, Marcus miller...you name it.
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Also, straight conical horns with no throat nor mouth flare are the worst possible idea in terms of diffraction. They also offer poor loading to the drivers in the lower portion of their bandpass.
Can you please recommend some tracks or albums I can listen to for the sub 27Hz listening experience please? Maybe the reason Ive not experienced significant musical benefit that low is that I played tracks without the low music content. Maybe the tracks only had rumble under 40Hz which meant lots of money was spent to reproduce noise and muddy the SNR ?
Some pipe organ works by Duruflé, Pachelbel, etc.
Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi.
A few synthetic dance tracks.
That's about it.
99.9% of musical bass resides above 40Hz.
Many rock/pop/indie/jazz recordings carry music signals below 30Hz. Some of them are live recordings and have just hum noise. Some have just effects but most have sort of subharmonics from drums and acoustic bass in a the recording booth. Still, when the speakers can deliver, we get wonderful sense of naturalness of sound, like being there. Classical recordings typically have hum from the big hall. Vinyl preamps often have highpass to block out subsonic hum, but still they give some resonaces from bass transients.
If one gets used to low bass, it, it's hard to live without. The system doesn't have to be enormous, just without highpass from reflex port tuning etc. evil tricks. For high spl we need large drivers of course.
I use Audacity to study the spectral content and dynamics of recordings. Some samples:
Lenni-Kalle Taipale Trio - Nothing to Hide - Invisible Beauty of My Mind - 32Hz
Chris Jones - Roadhouses and Automobiles - God Moves on Water- 32Hz
Kalevi Kiviniemi - Wagner Turku Cathedral - The Ride of Valkyries -24Hz
Mari Boine - Eagle Brother - track ¤4 - 32Hz
Michael Jackson - Thriller (re-issue) - Thriller - 34Hz
JJ Cale - Roll On - Down to Memphis - from 10Hz
If one gets used to low bass, it, it's hard to live without. The system doesn't have to be enormous, just without highpass from reflex port tuning etc. evil tricks. For high spl we need large drivers of course.
I use Audacity to study the spectral content and dynamics of recordings. Some samples:
Lenni-Kalle Taipale Trio - Nothing to Hide - Invisible Beauty of My Mind - 32Hz
Chris Jones - Roadhouses and Automobiles - God Moves on Water- 32Hz
Kalevi Kiviniemi - Wagner Turku Cathedral - The Ride of Valkyries -24Hz
Mari Boine - Eagle Brother - track ¤4 - 32Hz
Michael Jackson - Thriller (re-issue) - Thriller - 34Hz
JJ Cale - Roll On - Down to Memphis - from 10Hz
Attachments
Not as far as I could find, or a least not much of it. Some good discussion of the topic here:
Spectrum of Musical Genres
IB or infinite baffle is generally defined as an enclosure that is greater than 4 times the Vas of the drivers. This allows Fc ~= Fs and Qtc ~= Qts .
Drivers designed for this service have low Fs and Qts between .5 & .8 .
Using Multiple drivers to reduce excursion, a low distortion system can be created using a basement, attic, or spare room as the enclosure.
The drivers I referenced have an Fs of 18 Hz, a Qts of .57, a 90 db efficiency and a Vas of 22.5 Cubic Ft!
4 would push that up to about 99 db. Enclosure volume 180 Cu Ft Minimum.
At 10 times Vas, which is nearly ideal, 900 Cu Ft is required. If you have the right structure, this option can be very rewarding.
Good luck with your project.
... just thought I would throw in my short experience with the McCauley 6174 18" drivers.
They are often available used through eBay (that's where I got them) for a substantial discount. Maybe with a scratch or two on the magnet—personally I couldn't care less, as long as the driver works and the cone is intact.
I have recently completed a four-way active system, driving the McCauleys in an open baffle setup. Getting the McCauley to sing in an open baffle setup was challenging, but eventually, with a DSP-based pre-amp from RME and a huge amp from Accuphase, I was able to make it shake walls At some point the kitchen broom (hanging on a nail) fell off the wall in the kitchen. The kitchen is two rooms away from the "test" room.
I cannot attest whether it sounds better than others, but what I can say is that it can really deliver those lowest notes once hooked up with the right amp.
There is also an interesting test with the driver in a ported box online, take a look:
http://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/Subwoofer_Design.pdf
They are often available used through eBay (that's where I got them) for a substantial discount. Maybe with a scratch or two on the magnet—personally I couldn't care less, as long as the driver works and the cone is intact.
I have recently completed a four-way active system, driving the McCauleys in an open baffle setup. Getting the McCauley to sing in an open baffle setup was challenging, but eventually, with a DSP-based pre-amp from RME and a huge amp from Accuphase, I was able to make it shake walls
At some point the kitchen broom (hanging on a nail) fell off the wall in the kitchen. The kitchen is two rooms away from the "test" room.I cannot attest whether it sounds better than others, but what I can say is that it can really deliver those lowest notes once hooked up with the right amp.
There is also an interesting test with the driver in a ported box online, take a look:
http://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/Subwoofer_Design.pdf
Attachments
Having read my way through this thread, I still don't quite understand the fascination with infra-bass sound.
I used to live in an inner city 'clubland' combat zone. Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, the house in which I lived would literally 'rawk'. Objects and pieces of furniture would resonate at their fundamental frequency. Ever seen a glass of water vibrate - like in Jurassic Park? It got so bad that I often felt my internal organs picking up bass lines. In the end, I had to leave the district. I loved clubbing and dance culture, but the infrasound was driving me mad. To this day, I cannot withstand bass below 35hz. Maybe I'm getting old.......
Anyway, carry on
tapestryofsound
I used to live in an inner city 'clubland' combat zone. Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, the house in which I lived would literally 'rawk'. Objects and pieces of furniture would resonate at their fundamental frequency. Ever seen a glass of water vibrate - like in Jurassic Park? It got so bad that I often felt my internal organs picking up bass lines. In the end, I had to leave the district. I loved clubbing and dance culture, but the infrasound was driving me mad. To this day, I cannot withstand bass below 35hz. Maybe I'm getting old.......
Anyway, carry on
tapestryofsound
You are right with your notions.I would like to invest no more than $1,500 preferably less for pair of drivers or 4 smaller subwoofers perhaps such as the 12' Peerless 830500 if it can do the job properly -go flat down 20Hz and through all it's frequency range a nice and clean bass without any distortion .The room is about 3.5Meter*6.5Meter with ceiling of 2.7Meter.I like to listen to my music very loud ("light" opera-Alessandro Safina,Vittorio ,Il Volo.Il divo.Sarah brightman,Lana del Ray....etc.. ,Operatic-Gothic rock-Nightwish,Xandria,After forever ,Aeternitas and Kamelot ,King Crimson ,Rush and gothic metal especially fronted by female singers with operatic background .
Thanks Mark,you really shocked me with your observation regarding OMA because I read few times that the OMA top of the line(of course it's asking retail price is astronomical without any justification )is extra ordinary in every aspect including the low's which purport to go down to 20Hz and now and some others say it's not as I thought and read.I thought that there are some conical horns which can do the job properly and that is just a question of know how to build it ?! I was sure there are some manipulations/ways to make a horn for 20Hz like folded or other ways...as earlier mentioned ,I was fed out of reading -never heard it ,however I did hear a speaker named Martion Orgon out ofwhich was my main dream to build something as close as possible.I came to listen to it for 30 minutes and stayed 6 hours.It's an active 4 way spherical horn speaker and there are no words to describe it's quality and natural sound ,no matter how loud you listen to it and you never get tired-you just want to keep on listening all the time -simply out of this world ,but it's retail is 50,000Euro !
Regretfully,a lot of data is unknown-drivers,horns flare,compression driver ,hence can't make it and I wish I could ,because after listening to a lot of speakers all over the globes I never encountered something which is remotely similar !
Regretfully,a lot of data is unknown-drivers,horns flare,compression driver ,hence can't make it and I wish I could ,because after listening to a lot of speakers all over the globes I never encountered something which is remotely similar !
My aim is to find a 18' driver or a pair of 12' (perhaps the Peerless 830500 if it can deliver as I expect) per side that could go flat 20Hz up to at least 100Hz but preferably up to 300Hz-500Hz without choking or any distortion and have excellent Fs and Xmas and need relatively "small" sealed enclosure (around maximum 50cm*50cm*70cm high) preferably "Hornish" but not necessarily so.
I'd appreciate if someone could post a photo of infinite baffle next to sealed enclosure.
I'd appreciate if someone could post a photo of infinite baffle next to sealed enclosure.
Infinite baffle is built into the room's corner. Sealed ppsl mid-bass enclosure parked just in front of it, for size reference, it's 6 cubic foot-net.
On an associate note, your room size will not support the development of a 20Hz note. You might be able to produce 20Hz pressure, but it will not "play the note" (Bob Fulton). Since you are wanting your selected 18 inch to reach up into the mid-bass zone, my suggestion would be to find the highest quality 18 inch "pro-style" sub-woofer driver, that you can afford.
