Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SEAS MR18 3-way
SEAS MR18 3-way
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th December 2018, 01:40 PM   #61
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Some more measurements added in shared Google folder. Hypex HFD program is nasty, one must upload filters and remember to save the project file several times during setting session. Guess who often forgets to save it... Measuring a large 3-way speaker indoors is troublesome. Coaxial MT is easy, but the woofer on the bottom is not - it uses bondary reflections as essential part of response eq, and measuring it on the table shows always strange wobbles.

MR183w active by Juhazi - specifications:
W SB Acoustics 29NRX75-6, sealed 40L, downfire
M SEAS MR18REX in 7L aperiodic ball, loose polyfill.
T SEAS T18ACG (replacement) with serial 8.5mH Jantzen Cross-Cap
Hypex FA123 dsp and Ncore 2x125W, 1x100W
-crossovers acoustic LR2 at 300/3000Hz, eq 3 biquads per section, 544us delay for MT section, gain adjust
MT enclosure form 2 IKEA Blanda bowls
W enclosure from Biltema cardboard casting tube, plywood bottom and top plates
-furniture cloth sleeve, 3 furniture legs/speaker

Total BOM for a pair appr. 1600€ (I used second hand drivers)

Room response at spot without room-eq
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MR183w LR spot 600ms 112.jpg (107.9 KB, 219 views)
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 26th December 2018 at 01:59 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2018, 09:46 AM   #62
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
Listening impressions and some comparative measurements

So, I have for more than a week listened to MR183w sitting next to my AINOgradients in my living room. Impressions verify my initial thoughts, but it was about five years from previous side-by-side comparison of dipole vs. monopole! I have adjusted settings in dsp by listening and measuring, several iterations. I have bad hearing of high frequencies, and sound changes every time I swallow or yawn. This and challenges of taking measurements indoors are making this stage a bit frustrating and time consuming. Naturally my dog and other family members have been asked for opinion.

Frequency balance - a matter of eq settings, but the different directivity proflile of speakers makes MR183w more difficult to set - measurements and audition don't go so much hand in hand as with AINOs. Treble balance changes more off-axis with MR183w.

Frequency extension - par because both have closed box downfire 10" bass. Room response within 6dB 15-15 000Hz for both.

Definition, imaging, clarity - MR183w wins here. Bass notes and harmonics sound very good and punchy. AINOs are cardiod around 100-300Hz and obviously changing directivity affects room response making it less uniform. This can be seen in spectrogram too. In midrange MR183w sounds accurate and more "like loudspeakers", AINOs sound more diffuse/lifelike specially with classical music and speech. With eyes closed it is easy to hear that dipoles sound more 3-dimensional.

Conclusion - MR183w sounds like very good typical monopole co-axial speakers, with precise imaging and are good for people who listen mostly pop/rock etc. music recorded in studios. For classical and vocal music dipoles sound more natural and sound tonality doesn't change hardly at all off-axis or when walking around in the room.

In attached measurements neither speaker is exactly as they were set for listening, so they are not directly 100% comparable.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MR183w vs ainogneo83 onax vs spot spl 60ms 16-vert.jpg (232.3 KB, 190 views)
File Type: jpg MR183w vs ainogneo83 R decay-vert.jpg (357.4 KB, 179 views)
File Type: jpg MR183w vs ainogneo83 R spectr-vert.jpg (330.5 KB, 175 views)
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 30th December 2018 at 10:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st January 2019, 04:25 PM   #63
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
I wasn't totally happy with the duelundish crossover topologies, so went to textbook LR2. Clarity of treble improved and now I think that these are ready to be delivered to my daughter!

These responses were taken at 1,7m in-room so they contain reflections around WM xo. Eq and delay were set based on several better measurements for each purpose.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mr183w lr2 step.jpg (108.0 KB, 148 views)
File Type: jpg mr183w lr2 all ind 60ms 16 0¤.jpg (137.1 KB, 33 views)
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2019, 10:28 PM   #64
Greebster is offline Greebster  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Greebster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: South of the Skyway
Will you deliver them with the pretty flower skirt pattern?




Slowly configuring my mess, installed (((acourate))) and JRiver. Reading manuals & ebooks
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2019, 06:05 AM   #65
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
I'm sorry to say nay My daughter Alisa hates Marimekko fabrics and patterns and these will be hers.
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 4th January 2019 at 06:08 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2019, 07:46 AM   #66
DannerD3H is offline DannerD3H  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Denmark
Hi Juhazi,
Just curious - any specific reason for such high crossover to the down-firing woofer? Have you compared it to lower crossover point? Is this really not affecting sound?



Just curious as my own design (as you know) has side firing woofers. Theory says it should be bad to go above 80Hz (directional sound) with drivers not facing the listener. However, I am a rookie so I have no experience to base it on. Never heard a speaker with 1+7+10+10 like mine with all drivers facing forward so i can't really compare.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2019, 08:05 AM   #67
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
My midrange is true midrange, it has low xmax which doesn't allow low xo. And using shallow LR2 slopes that is emphasized.

Other reason is that this way I almost totally get rid of typical floor bounce around 300-400Hz of midrange.

Overall it sounds very good! Low notes of double bass, drums, electric bass etc. contain lots of harmonics in range of several hundreds of Hz and they sound very natural now.

With your FA123 it is very easy to test this too! With LR2 slopes and perfected step response, bass is only half cycle behind mid at xo, so it has only half of the group delay of LR4 bass. I have experiencedLR4 makes bass loose it's punchiness, just like bass reflex tuning does. I want to get rid of those! I have set my home theater sub (2x15" closed) also to LR2 around 100Hz with minidsp and it is sounds very good too. With movie rumbles there is no difference, but with music yes! I will neve go back with this, but it is personal of course. Please try it!

Check other large 3-way speaker desings, in most caes WM xo is LR2 around 300Hz. Wilson Alexia has LR2 at 200Hz but timing isn't spot on. Wilson Audio Specialties Alexia Series 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2019, 08:53 AM   #68
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
About directionality, You have stereo speakers! HT sub 80Hz recommendation is for typical situation of having just one sub that gets summed L+R signal.

I just love Stereophile tests! Magico S5MkII has two woofers near floor, xo is LR4 at 300Hz. It measures even better in-room than Wilson Alexia! Magico has room dip at 300Hz, that might get smoother with LR2...
Magico S5 Mk.II loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 4th January 2019 at 08:57 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2019, 09:25 AM   #69
DannerD3H is offline DannerD3H  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Denmark
Aaah okay it makes sense if your midrange cannot handle the displacement!


I see many three-way (also Troels Gravesens build have XO in the 300-500Hz range to bass driver, but I dind't think it would work in my configuration).
I also feel my bass isn't as punchy as I would like it to be. I use LR4 filters and cross at 150 Hz.
I will definitely try LR2 filters and higher XO then!


Sorry, I din't mean to steal the spotlight from your build! I still really like your speaker as well!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th January 2019, 05:53 PM   #70
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Juhazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland
I had a day off from work so some more tweaking and measurements. Woofer-mid timing has been very tricky, but now I think they are on same cycle, mid has 436us delay and tweeter only 322 to woofer. The alu tweeter sits deeper than the original.

I tried to match response to AINOgradient, but still in these measurements the mid blows too hard between 200-400Hz and tweeter 3-5kHz. I adjusted those afterwards, now their sound signature comes from different radiation patterns. Speakers were side by side and I also moved left speakers 10" closer to see how response changes. MR183w measurements show a wiggle around 1kHz and it comes most likely from my laptop near the mic, because it disappears when I moved the speaker and moved the laptop too. Dipole speaker is less affected with positioning and has overall less wiggles in response despite being relatively close to front wall!

One major finding is again, that small wiggles in response are artefacts from reflections. 1/3 octave smoothing tells best how the speaker sounds.

More graphics here
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mr vs aino L moved 20ms 124jpg.jpg (182.9 KB, 17 views)
__________________
Radikal aktivist AINOgradient speaker project

Last edited by Juhazi; 11th January 2019 at 06:06 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


SEAS MR18 3-wayHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First pics of first build Seas 2-ways. Seas U18RNX/P, Seas 27TBFC/G. Stewart Holmes Multi-Way 24 1st May 2014 12:17 AM
Before I order the parts for the Zaph Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG speaker mr_push_pull Multi-Way 17 17th August 2012 04:34 AM
Aurasound MR18.4 (NS18) x2 azngotskills Swap Meet 23 22nd October 2011 04:06 AM
18" Aura MR18.4 subwoofer nwpadmax Swap Meet 0 2nd April 2008 08:02 PM
Wanted: Seas W17EX001, Usher 8945P, Seas CA18, or somewhat similar mid-woofer. Spasticteapot Swap Meet 2 7th March 2007 05:06 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:08 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki