First attempt at designing a speaker and crossover. I'm sure that I've done it wrong.

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Justin, wall mounting loudspeakers can be problematic, the 'boundary effect' can add up to 9 db of bass boost to frequencies below 100c/s which can acoustically be out of balance unless you design your loudspeaker to take that effect into account. Also, wall resonances and rattles can also add nuisances that distract from the enjoyment of your sound system, generally it is better to step your loudspeakers away from the walls for a better balanced sound.
There are many pitfalls and compromises to a good sound system and one generally learns the hard way, not to worry we have all done it. ....
icon14.gif


C.M
 
3rd order filters don't do crazy things to the signal if they're properly designed
There's the rub, for a novice that is not impossible, unless through sheer luck. I guess if you want to be a gun filter designer then knock yourself out, but my experience has been that 1st order even with its substantial compromises sound more pleasing than wacking 6+ components in the signal chain which can sound like a fog over the music, sure somtimes 1st order will just not work, but to me thats a sign that the drivers are not compatible, and then going higher order may not make things better anyway.
And I'm not saying 1st order or nothing, just that its not that easy, as will all those people who have abandoned passive crossovers and went active or full range, will attest.
 
Your first crossover attempt looked really good to me. I would not say that it had an excessive number of components or needed simplifying. I only bother eliminating components from a crossover when they are excessively large values which result in large and/or expensive components. All your values were quite reasonable IMO.

As others have said, all it really needed is the tweeter bumped up a couple dB. The resistors don't need to handle the amount of power seen in the sim which assumes full power regardless of frequency. In an actual passage of music there is not much power in the higher frequencies. A 5Watt resistor in the tweeter section should be plenty.

I would stick with around a 2kHz crossover for the tweeter. An XT25 should handle that fine with a 4th order slope. A 2nd order slope @ 2kHz is too aggressive for the XT25 - it'll suffer distortion at loud listening levels.

While dividing the box into individual air spaces for each woofer isn't necessary it does have the advantage that it eliminates long standing waves as now a very tall box becomes two shorter ones. Shorter standing waves are higher in frequency and more easily dealt with by partially filling the box with polyfill etc.

I would generally advise against trying to make a 3-way as your first speaker (even though you do seem to have a pretty good grasp of crossover design from what I can see). I would recommend buying a measurement mic and building a 2-way at first to confirm that what you have simmed matches reality, especially with regards to phase alignment. Once you have accomplished this you are ready for 3-way imo. An XT25 and many of the woofers discussed here (Dayton RS, SB Acoustics) would be suitable for both 2-way and 3-way so you could build it as a 2-way first, then modify it into a 3-way later.

3rd order crossovers use a lot of components that can do crazy things to the signal, as a sanity check get a cap and coil so you can run the drivers in first order, and compare to that.
Only if you bang some nominal impedance into a filter calculator and don't sim it. It looks to me like the OP is on the right track because the filter Q looks good and the impedance doesn't show any craziness. The XT25 will need to be crossed at 3.5kHz or something excessively high to handle a 1st order electrical filter and that will totally destroy the polar response of the system, especially since the OP wants to make an MTM.
 
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Hey Justin, here's a follow-up to my post #38 taking a closer look at some driver combinations and the xo costs. I'll respond to other stuff later.

Option 1: ~ $550

1 x SB 26STCN
2 x Peerless HDS 4" 830992
1 x Peerless HDS 8" Nomex 830869

The sims below immediately showed me 3 things. First that the drivers were indeed amenable to a fairly simplistic 3-way xo (2nd order on the woofer and mid, 3rd order on the tweeter). 2nd that you gain a little bit of sensitivity on the woofer due to the interaction of the main coil and the impedance peak and 3rd, that you lose a little bit of SPL on the tweeter due to the cap values such that it only just meets the SPL target. Personally I would prefer to have a little cushion on both the mid and the tweeter in order to raise their level, just in case. However, given that these are for use with an AVR, you can actually get the receiver to make those eq adjustments for you. I didn't check out all the details of that Pioneer, but it does look pretty capable. Up to you really.

Things to note: xo points are about 400Hz and 2300Hz and phase is tracking very well as shown by the reverse nulls. Sensitivity ends up at about 92dB and impedance minimum is typical for a 4ohm speaker, about 3ohm which is fine for your amp. 13 xo parts in total which isn't too bad, especially when 4 of them are cheap resistors.

Driver costs =~ $325 (but that's dependent on no extra hidden costs when ordering from Solen)
Xo costs =~ $220 using the lowest priced decent quality components mostly from PE. I made 1 concession to cost savings by going with a much cheaper non-polarized electrolytic for the larger cap value in the woofer filter. (Values are just a ballpark btw and will be at least a little different probably with real world measurements. The basic topology should be the same though.)
 

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Option 2: ~$620

1 x SB 29RDCN $57
2 x Peerless HDS 4" 830992
1 x Peerless HDS 8" Nomex 830869

Same design as before but this time with a tweeter that has a sensitivity of 94dB. (A lower resonance frequency too and very nice low distortion but it is $24 more than the 1st one.) Now it needs a some series resistance and so you now have a little room to play with both the mid and tweeter levels if desired. I prefer that there are options available especially when I am making recommendations for other people.

Driver costs =~ 400
Xo costs =~ 220

Everything else stays pretty much the same.
 

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Option #3: ~$475 MTM

1 x SB 29RDCN $57
2 x SB 15NAC $46 Cnd :)yikes: yikes, only 13 left in stock!)

Talk about an easy xo - only 5 components in total. That's what happens when you start with good drivers. Xo is at about 1800Hz, any cone breakup is well below the fundamental, the reverse null looks excellent again and impedance is again about 4ohm nominal. Sensitivity is pretty much the same as the 3-ways, 92dB 2.83V at 1m.

Driver costs =~ $385 (again with the Solen caveat)
Xo costs =~ 90

I kind of think this speaker is going to sound very good. Max SPL is right up there with the 3-way at about 110dB at 1m again with the use of the AVR's 60Hz or 80Hz HP filter. If you are wondering about the quality of these drivers, look closely at these speakers by Revel, drivers are just in a different color (ok maybe they have been modified a little too, I'm not sure but you may be surprised how many speaker manufacturers just use off the shelf drivers the same as we do). I can't really say which I theoretically prefer (not having heard them of course), the 2-way or the 3-way, so I won't.

These are just some suggestions anyways - other driver combinations are still possible. Either 3-way might just be a little cheaper as just a TMW with perhaps a single RS150-4 as the mid, or ....

Again, let me know if you have any questions.
 

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I only priced the crossover components at Parts Express (using the closest spec component when the exact wasn't available), so I'm guessing that I could get the cost down if I shopped around; however, with that caveat, here's what options #2 & #3 will cost in total:

Option #2:

6 x Peerless 830992 and 3 x Peerless 830869 from Solen -- $292 shipped (It looks like the import duty is just 4.9%, so that's negligible.)
3 x SB29RDCN from Madisound -- $172 free shipping
Crossover components from Parts Express -- $389 free shipping

Total cost for 3 speakers: $853

I can save about $55 by going with the non-polarized electrolytic capacitors in the woofer filter, but it's still quite a bit more than I planned to spend.

Option #3:

6 x SB15NAC30-8 from Solen -- $283 shipped
3 x SB29RDCN from Madisound -- $172 free shipping
Crossover components from Parts Express -- $129 free shipping

Total cost for 3 speakers: $584

I can probably convince myself to spend the ~$100 more than I originally planned and go with this design. The one thing that I'm not a huge fan of is the silver cone on the SB woofer; since they will be behind an acoustically transparent screen, I worry about light reflections. I wish that the black cone version were on sale. I'll just have to make a speaker grill, I guess.

With only 13 of the SB15NAC30-8 in stock, I'm going to have to decide by tomorrow if this is the route that I'm going to take.

I forgot to thank you earlier for the white paper that you posted; that's going to help me immensely when I'm ready to take measurements.

Speaking of... Since these speakers will be in a baffle wall, do I need to wait until the wall is built and measure them in place, or can I set them up in my garage and take the measurements as soon as they're built? (It could be awhile -- possibly as long as six months or so -- before the room gets remodeled.)

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help you are giving me; It's so much more than I could have hoped for.
 
Justin, wall mounting loudspeakers can be problematic, the 'boundary effect' can add up to 9 db of bass boost to frequencies below 100c/s which can acoustically be out of balance unless you design your loudspeaker to take that effect into account. Also, wall resonances and rattles can also add nuisances that distract from the enjoyment of your sound system, generally it is better to step your loudspeakers away from the walls for a better balanced sound.
There are many pitfalls and compromises to a good sound system and one generally learns the hard way, not to worry we have all done it. ....
icon14.gif


C.M

Unfortunately, I don't have a choice but to wall mount the speakers; they are going behind an acoustically transparent projection screen.

Also, looking at your sketch, it looks like your speakers are laid out horizontally. Typically, we stack the drivers vertically, because that gives better horizontal dispersion of your sound...

Perhaps it just looks that way because of the angle that I had the view when taking the screenshots, but all the drivers have been aligned vertically in my designs.
 
Ok, so it looks like shipping costs from Solen are about the same as the exchange rate savings, which means that the drivers are only a good deal if they are on sale. Not as good a deal as before but still a deal. I had to go back and look at the shipping costs from past PE orders from the States just to double check and about $60 for a decently heavy load looks about right for international shipping.

It looks like you have priced slightly better quality xo components than I did. There are certain places in the filters for savings like iron core inductors for large values and NPE's for very large caps in a woofer's parallel leg for eg. If you happen to order from Solen, I've found their resistors and their Silver Metalized Polyester Caps for large values in parallel legs can save you some money.

But even with some cheaper xo parts, it does look like the 3-way options will be outside your budget. Bummer. But I guess it makes the MTM option the obvious choice.

Having said that, I was thinking about the MTM xo last night and I think I may have done it too fast. I'm worried that I may have asked too much from the tweeter at max SPL. I'm thinking I need to move the tweeter xo a little higher or use a steeper acoustic rolloff or perhaps both. Either will take a few more components (4 more I think) than my 1st sim. So, a little bit more money again. Sorry about that. I have to give it a closer look but I won't be able to do that until later this evening. I'll get back to you.

Cheers
 
Hi JustinRT,
I just wanted to mention from personal experience not to settle because of cost constraints. I'm not sure what your target completion date is, but it may be advisable to gather necessary drivers in stages for one of the more expensive options that jReave suggested. Otherwise, you may have some regret down the road not spending the extra coin on what you really wanted.

Have Fun,
Rich
 
Right then,

I've had a closer inspection of my SB MTM sim and all is good as is. One of the things with XSim vs some other modeling programs, like PCD for eg, is that it doesn't include target curves. Also when you use multiple drivers, it shows them at their individual SPL levels instead of combined so it's not super clear where the xo point is. So, looking closer, the xo point is actually closer to 2200Hz than 1800Hz and the acoustical slope is closer to 4th order than 2nd. The SB 29RDCN can handle 100W with a 2nd order Butterworth @ 2500 Hz (which will get you 112dB at 1m) and what I simmed falls within that target curve when I import into XSim below (target in orange). But just to let you know, I did do some sims with a higher xo point but it does take 3 or 4 more components, none of which though are of very large values.

Anyways, the SB 29RDCN is an excellent tweeter with very low distortion, high sensitivity, high power handling and a small faceplate for closer C2C spacing. It even has a little dip in the 5-9kHz sibilance range which can be nice for voices. I was hoping to find something similar at a smaller price point but that was a difficult task indeed - I found a grand total of zero.

I can see the suitability now of a compression driver in this type of application where the in-wall installation results in that extra 6dB of sensitivity. But I don't really know much about them so I can't really help in that regard. I'm thinking that including the price of the horn, it'll still be hard to get something better at the same price as the SB tweeter. I could be wrong there though.

Regarding restricting vertical dispersion, certainly a horn is the best at that. However, an MTM configuration does do something of the same thing albeit not as much but that's 1 of the reasons I was favoring an MTM even in the 3-way option. C2C spacing certainly gets compromised with the horn but that's a rule that gets broken often and may not be so bad if you can find a fairly narrow horn? Up to you really. One thing to note though is that the HF are actually the easiest to attenuate in a room so if you use a rug on the floor and maybe something on the ceiling, narrow vertical dispersion doesn't become that much of a problem.
 

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Hey Justin,

Always interesting, below are some harmonic distortion measurements from Zaph Audio. Look in particular at the most egregious, 3rd harmonic in blue and where applicable, look in the frequency range that the driver is being used in. First up is the RS150-8 considered an excellent value 5" driver. I don't have measurements for the SB15NAC, but the next 2 are for the SB15NRXC-8 and the SB15MFC-8 which are the NAC's brother's, same frame and motors, just different cone materials so expect the same kind of performance. Last is the SB29RDCN tweeter. Even better. And maybe a reminder: a difference of 10dB is perceived as about twice as loud.

About toe-in: this may be 1 of those try-it-and-see things. Diffraction effects are going to be non-existent with the speakers flush. That's the best case scenario. Toed-in, diffraction ripple enters into the picture but may be mitigated by a little bit of 'framing' around the speakers as pictured below, although your's would have different angles and they don't have to necessarily be made of wood. More important is the off-axis behavior. Toe-in might help but I can't say for sure without knowing your speaker positioning and the layout of your room and seating. The horizontal off-axis response of the SB tweeter looks pretty good. Maybe just a boost in the HF will fix things with flush mounting or maybe it's another thing your AVR eq can take care off.

About boundary reinforcement: actually you can get more than a 9dB boost in the LF and I'm counting on at least 6dB of it due to flush mounting in the rear wall. Proximity to the floor isn't going to change whether the speaker is free standing or in-wall, so that 1 doesn't concern me. However, if mounting is close to one corner, that might be make a difference. Always best to have side wall and speaker placement symmetry, so if 1 wall is open, I wonder if you might be able to do something about that. And dormers? Maybe post a picture or 3. Actually before construction, now might be a good time to start a new thread and ask about HT room optimization. But for the corner placement, again that may be something for the AVR to rake care of.

I think I mentioned before, if this is a one off sort of thing, an AVR measurement mic can work fine with REW, you don't have to buy a mic. Put the extra $ towards the speakers maybe.

Yes, in-wall mounting needs to be done thoughtfully. Best to attach it to the framing wood and not the drywall and best to decouple the speaker in some fashion from the wall and the wood. How you do that may make a difference if you flush mount vs toe-in. Sorbothane is probably one of the best isolators but there are other things or combination of things that work well too.

Silver cones and reflected light: mmm, I hadn't considered that but I think you might be right. Yea, black grill cloth is the obvious answer although I suspect a single coat of flat black paint wouldn't do any harm but I've never done it and I'm not sure I'd be very inclined to try it out on my 1st set of diy speakers without somebody else's solid endorsement. :eek: Anyone?

For in-walls, measuring for the purposes of xo design has to done with the speakers in place. However, if you can simulate an in-wall placement in your garage, that might work just as well. It's got to be a fairly wide simulated wall though. And it could even be made out of cardboard.

Also btw, try to stop thinking in the usual rectangular dimensions of free standing speakers. With a very shallow box for in-wall placement, think about the rear wave energy going out laterally in all directions instead of going backwards. Now what shape more or less is going to facilitate absorption in those directions?

Let me know if you have any questions.
 

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jReave,

If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to see the xover that you designed with more components. If it's not going to be way more expensive, but provides a better result, I'd definitely consider it.

I plan to buy a mic (likely the UMIK-1) and minidsp so I can eq my sub -- so I should be able to get decent measurements, and not have to rely on my avr mic.

As with all of this... I'm not sure that I've done this correctly, but I tried my hand at using WinISD to model a couple enclosures using the SB woofers. Am I correct in thinking that I will need to use a ported enclosure if I want to crossover with my sub @ 80 Hz? How does the ported enclosure that I modeled look?

FYk79Hk.png


Unless it's decided that I really need a horn tweeter because of the shape of my room, I'm probably going to go with the SB29RDCN; all the reviews I've seen are glowing. I did have a question, though: The version that you linked to has a neodymium magnet; however, I see that there is a version with (I assume) a ferrite magnet. The difference in price is less than $6, so that doesn't matter, but I was wondering if there's a reason that you went with the neo version. Is it just that it's smaller, or are there other advantages? Comparing the listed frequency response of the two, it looks like the non-neo version goes lower before starting to roll off; does this matter?

Here's what the room will look like. It would be nice to be building the room from scratch, exactly as I want it, but the room already exists; we will just be adding the baffle wall so we can mount the screen. As I said, I know it's about as far from ideal as it can be, but it's the only space we have.

xUwoUcg.png

The speakers aren't spaced exactly; I just threw them up there roughly where they will go. Will this wall even allow the speakers to avoid a baffle step?

Here's the back wall:

cOs7DKY.png


Here's behind the baffle wall (I haven't finished drawing the door):

Zc7iwG6.png

It's really just the rest of the room, but when the wall is added I guess it kind of becomes a short ~4ft wide, fully enclosed hallway.

Here's the funky ceiling:

lnHfx9B.png
 
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Hey Justin,

First, wow! Massive skills on the sketches. I only wish that I could something so good..... :worship:

Second, your box sims look perfectly consistent with what I get with Unibox. But..... with 4 x 18" subs, you have to ask yourself how low do you need your mains to go? I'm assuming your subs will go to 80Hz, so that's all you need out of your mains. (Please correct me if I am wrong - then you will need to go ported.) Thus, sealed with F3 =~ 71Hz'ish in your sim is fine. So go sealed, the transient response is better. I had to look at a lot of 5" mids to find one that goes that low sealed. And that had excellent SQ to start off with.

Attached are sims for a higher xo point. It's pretty easy for the tweeter to raise the xo point, but for the mid, we get a peaking in the the 1-3kHz range as we reduce the value of the series inductor, so we have to fix that with a series notch filter placed in parallel to the mid. I did another 1 with a 3rd order electrical on the tweeter for a steeper rolloff, but the phase was harder to align. It needed for the tweeter to be recessed about a 1/2"-3/4" compared to the midwoofers to better align the drivers' acoustic centers, so a stepped baffle, but I don't think that's necessary for the tweeter. Also the true acoustic centers are hard to model - best wait till the drivers are in hand and measure them to determine it with accuracy.

Great observation on the tweeter -- I had not noticed that there were 2 different versions. Are both available? I'm only seeing what Madisound has listed.

Seriously, start another thread on what to do with that room. There are many people that post here that are more knowledgeable on this topic than I am. From my limited experience I would say:

1 - Get the couch off the back wall. That is the worst place for it.
2 - Given #1, I'm not sure I would construct a new wall on that side of the door and thus shorten the length of the room. I'm thinking of just maybe building out the existing wall on the other side of the door so you have enough room to do in-wall speakers. Although I can't see for sure if you have enough space to do that. But if you do, move the speaker wall back, move the couch forward and move the projector forward too if you have to to get the correct throw distance. That may be a problem for the surrounds, but they are of secondary importance in my mind.

I'm not sure what else to tell you right now re the dormers other than cover the glass with heavy drapes.

I'd still like to see something like an expanding or sliding partition 'wall' on the left that can come out to provide the proper symmetry to the front sound stage. I had that problem in 1 of the places I used to live in and I was able to just prop up some closet doors I wasn't using. Then I pulled some heavy drapery across the whole side when in HT mode to help balance things out, at least in the HF. Not very elegant but it worked.

Btw, please disregard any incoherencies in the above post as I have had just a few glasses of wine this evening. :rofl:

Cheers
 

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jReave,

Thank you. I'm certainly not an expert with SketchUp, but if I can ever help by modeling something for you, please let me know. I'd be happy to do it.

Yeah, the subs will go to 80 Hz -- in fact, I could crossover even higher if needed -- so I'll definitely go sealed.

I priced out the components for the crossover with the higher xo point and it only came to $30 more total for all three crossovers. When it comes time to buy the components, I'll probably go this route (assuming my real-world measurements don't show that I need drastically higher priced components).

Here are links to both versions of the tweeter:

SB29RDCN - with neodymium magnet
SB29RDC - without neodymium magnet

I wish that I could just use the front wall to mount the screen and speakers; unfortunately there's a door on the wall:

4BW8LOo.png


The couch won't be touching the back wall, but it will be pretty close (otherwise, the seating will be too close to the screen). I do plan to research room treatments to mitigate some of the problems, but I know that it's never going to be perfect.

I definitely plan on getting heavy drapes for the windows.

The heavy drapery pulled across the left side is an interesting idea. It might not be an option due to the sloping ceiling on that side of the room, but I'll definitely give some thought to it.

You mentioned in an earlier post about simulating an in-wall placement for the purpose of measuring the speakers. Would it work to build a baffle big enough to cover a door opening and mounting the speaker in that baffle? Specifically, I'm wondering if either the 1/2 inch step down of the door trim to the rest of the wall or the part of the trim that sticks out 1/2 inch at the top of the door will cause any problems.

Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about with these pictures:

GeTiUod.png


mQaAnVD.png
 
I would stick with the 29RDCN - smaller faceplate and an extra dB in sensitivity. I misunderstood, I though you meant there were 2 of the RDCN's out there. Further confused by the fact that Solen and Madisound have slightly different spec sheets for that driver (I see now that Solen's was a preliminary one).

Concerning the testing, I would rather wait until you get them into the actual room, especially as at least 1 speaker may be close to a corner, so I would want to take some far-field ungated measurements to get an idea of the in-room response. But if for some reason you want to get them done before that, your idea looks like it should work. Actually, that's a rather smart way of doing it, but I was going to mention, just like for music the fronts will be best when the tweeters are placed at the listening position ear height. So same applies for the measuring. Maybe though, some adjustments to the xo might need to be made when you get them into the real room.

Something else I was going to mention for projectors - the image is best when the back and surrounding side walls, floor and ceiling are a dark color. If you can. Also I just remembered there's something called blackout material that is excellent for the backside of drapes.

Obvious questions: Is that door used? Or can it be moved? Or..... I like to think outside of the box and your speaker-in-a-door testing idea just made me consider doing something exactly like that for the real thing. Although I'm not sure I'd use a real door as opposed to building a fake wall and just putting the middle section right in front of the existing door on a set of heavy duty hinges. Maybe a rubber wheel under the far corner. For what you are trying to do in there, there is just no way I would allow a single door to force the wastage of so much space and placement of the couch so close to the back wall.

Can you actually post just a quick sketch of the room's floor plan with dimensions? I was giving the toe-in question some more thought and I want to look at what the angles would be at the couch. I'm thinking the best thing might be to angle the side sections of the new front wall on which the front L & R speakers will sit, maybe something like 10 degrees. Maybe I can draw something if those ideas aren't clear but see attached maybe for more clarity. Also I'm trying to think of some kind of solution to get some form of a left side wall into play. Ideally, the whole length of the room, but the ideal hardly ever works out, so at least as far as the 1st reflection spot. What I'm thinking of is something like the way sliding closet doors would work.
 

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Hey Justin,

Just because I'm kind of like a dog with a bone when I'm presented with a problem, here are a few sketches of the basic idea that I 'm envisioning for your room if you are unable to move that front wall door.

I thought the side wall partitions might be better/easier as smaller, folding doors.

L & R speaker walls are angled 10 degrees. I'm thinking they should be angled such that the speakers end up about 5 to 10 degrees off-axis at the center of your couch.

Dimensions have got to be wrong and I've missed a lot of other details but hopefully these get my ideas across a little bit better. Not as good sketches as you do, but hey, I figure they'll do :D.
 
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