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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Kairos 3-way cabinet
Kairos 3-way cabinet
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:35 PM   #11
Ita0101 is offline Ita0101  Israel
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I want a true 3-way. I think the kairos isn't for me.

I'm pretty sure I have integration promblems.
I heard 2-way + 2 subs and it sounds good but not like a 3-way. Will minidsp make it sounds like 3-way?

Maybe 2-way monitor + subs + 2 minidsp is what I need?

I guess I didn't hear yet perfect balanced system with 2 subs.

10 years ago I had 3-way Sanyo vintage speaker in this room, I can't really remember how it played since it was my first speaker. In the last years I didn't hear any 3-way I like in this room...

Last edited by Ita0101; 20th April 2018 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:36 PM   #12
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
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Well, the Kairos with the additional woofer as designed by Jeff Bagby IS a 3-way system. It has a crossover between woofer and mid designed to give flat FR and good phase integration.

You can achieve the same result with the Kairos and a different woofer or a sub, with minidsp AND measurement capabilities. A minidsp is only useful if you know what you need to achieve.

Ralf
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:55 PM   #13
Ita0101 is offline Ita0101  Israel
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Thanks a lot.

So, basically if 2-way + 2 powered subs combine PERFECT, it can give me same results as 3-way?

Lets say - Kairos 2 way / illuminator monitor + 2 powered subs + minidsp Vs. 3 way design with 1" 7" and 10"/12? (Troels Fusion/SBA 10) ?

Thanks!
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Old 21st April 2018, 02:09 AM   #14
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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DEBATE POINT: Spend your limited floor space and money on an exceptional stereo pair of front 3-way FULL RANGE speakers.
---------------------
PORTS SUCK! they also blow...whistle...huff and puff....leak midrange harmonics

A 12" woofer like the SB34NRX75-6 designed for excellent transients in a sealed box volume can produce better sound quality than a ported alignment, but requires a larger volume box than a ported alignment for the same -F3. For the best stereo soundstage, spend your floor space and money on a stereo pair of tall front 3-way FULL RANGE speakers. Use the equalizer capability in your Denon or PC to help smooth low frequency bass.

Simplify the conversion to DSP. One of the big sonic benefits from DSP is the ease of getting very high quality bass from putting a "larger than normal" woofer in a modest volume sealed box and using a Linkwitz Transform function to get deep bass with a high power amplifier. Geddes: “The mains should be designed for the best possible direct field with as flat a power response as possible. Room equalization of the mains could only make them worse.” Initially put your single subwoofer along the rear wall(corner) to help equalize room bass modes at the listener.

You can get help to add the 12" sealed SB34NRX75-6 to the Jeff Bagby Adelphos pre-built crossover instead of the ported 10" SB29NRX75-6. You can get help on new crossover designs, if you can get local construction help.
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Old 21st April 2018, 04:36 AM   #15
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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SUPPLEMENT:
Jeff Bagby favors a LR2 woofer crossover at 200Hz to the Kairos to help cover flexible baffle step compensation demands. Jeff selected "musical" woofers with significant frequency extension beyond 200Hz.

"I call this a 'universal crossover' because the low pass section works well with a lot of different woofers since most of them break-up or roll-off well beyond the crossover point. And the high pass section does equally well for a large number of monitor speakers if they are sealed and have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. The crossover point is at approximately 200 Hz, which provides a nice transition between the bass and the vocal range. The acoustic slopes are approximately 2nd order Linkwitz – Riley slopes, which is the reason most of the set-ups will require a reverse polarity connection between the woofer module and the monitor. "
==============
The SVS SB-2000 Subwoofer SPL measurements show -3db at 220Hz, which is at the limit of ideal Kairos integration. You will want to listen to 200Hz music on your SB-2000 before commiting to a marriage with Kairos / Adelphos.
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File Type: jpg SVS SB2000 specs.JPG (64.6 KB, 560 views)
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Old 21st April 2018, 12:20 PM   #16
Ita0101 is offline Ita0101  Israel
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Thanks for comment, here and in the other post (don't want to bump it).

Seems awesome and it looks like I could handle the building process of the 2nd option with woofer in front.

BUT,
I like to play the SB2000 at 120 Hz / 100 Hz on crossover, it sounds better to me, I did a check with few songs I know well and turned the mains off sometimes to get bass only perspective.

That means that 3-way based on Adelphos + 12" sealed won't be ideal for me?
I can't understand how its affects me

I'm still considering the Ekta MK II, maybe its the way to go
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Old 21st April 2018, 04:02 PM   #17
Richidoo is offline Richidoo  United States
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Don't forget that Kairos has 6dB baffle step compensation. It would be nice to remove most of that to gain back that lost sensitivity when active woofer relieves the low frequency burden from the midwoofer. The low sensitivity of Kairos is one of the few negatives.

If you haven't built your Kairos yet, you could use the new Satori midrange drivers instead of the Kairos midwoofer.

A pair of Satori 9" per side will match the sensitivity of the new mid and the old ferrite Satori tweeter to make about 90dB sensitivity speaker. One of my future dream projects.
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:17 PM   #18
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ita0101 View Post
That means that 3-way based on Adelphos + 12" sealed won't be ideal for me?
1) Now you know that putting the Kairos / Aldephos using their recommended 200Hz crossover on top of stereo SB2000 subwoofers will not produce good sound.

2) Using stereo SB2000 subwoofers requires main front stereo speakers with -F3 below ~80Hz to meet the quarter wavelength C-to-C goal, and ideally -F3 below ~60Hz.

3) A sealed 12" SB34NRX75-6 woofer generates -F3 below 37Hz with excellent Qtc=0.7 transients before room gain effects. Adding equalization/DSP to a sealed SB34NRX75-6 with Fs=18Hz can generate -F3 ~20Hz deep bass. .... front stereo bass. SB2000 subwoofers along the rear wall or side walls can be used to smooth room bass modes at the listener.

4) The ported EKTA mk2 with -F3 = 37 Hz will also blend well with SB2000 subwoofers.
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File Type: jpg Room Gain.jpg (247.1 KB, 518 views)
File Type: jpg Sub placement.jpg (223.6 KB, 511 views)
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:22 PM   #19
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richidoo View Post
A pair of Satori 9" per side will match the sensitivity of the new mid and the old ferrite Satori tweeter to make about 90dB sensitivity speaker. One of my future dream projects.
I had this example Xsim on my system.
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File Type: jpg Newer Satori.JPG (247.2 KB, 161 views)
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:33 PM   #20
Ita0101 is offline Ita0101  Israel
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LineSource - Thanks for the explanation!

The 1"+7"+12" kit looks like to suit my needs. with 2x9" Satori woofers it sounds even more interesting but double the price for woofers.

If I want to build one of these -
Is there a cabinet's build plan?
What about cross over parts + scheme? (Is the scheme you posted is all what I need?)

Since it is my very first DIY speaker project I kinda must work by plans and schemes.

Richidoo - the 9" woofer seems to be good idea, Thanks.

But, if I choose use double woofers - why not using 2x8" Satori? I have small room, they cheaper in 20% from 9.5" and they are in white Egyptian papyrus :O - Could it work with Satori T+M?

Thanks again guys!!
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