The usual problem with a super tweeter is that your mid horn mouth will be big, so the centre-to-centre spacing of the drivers is much larger than a conventional system. This spacing is more of a problem when your listening position is close, which is why people sometimes say that horns only work for large rooms.
Some people fiddle about and find a tweeter arrangement that works work for them, some people never manage to get it sounding quite right. Success might be dependent on your listening preferences, gear, patience, age (how much of your HF hearing is left) and expectations.
If you compare 2 suitable drivers on the same horn, and both are equalised flat, there should be no difference in sound.
You'll notice a difference if (only) one driver has a problem, like the break up mode that Cask05 illustrated for the B&C DE750.
Not as much as you might think:
A) is a typical 2" compression driver with 75mm diaphragm and 0.1mm excursion.
B) is a typical 2" full range driver with a 50mm diaphragm and 1.5mm excursion.
B) will have about 4x the displacement.
However, for horn loaded drivers, that doesn't give you an octave more low end - you're limited by the horn's size. If the run the driver lower than the horn will support, the excursion requirements go up more rapidly than 4x per octave.
Does your amp needs a high impedance load? This might limit your driver selection. The 10 watt maximum might rule out a 2" full range - it depends on your SPL requirements. See posts 43-45 here
...but why not just try it and see? Digikey ships for free. You could have a pair of NE65W-04-ND delivered within a few days*. If they play loud enough for you, you could just stop there.
If they aren't loud enough, you'll have to spend more, but at least you'll know the ~ $US 1,000 extra** will be well spent, and you could demote the full range drivers to some other use (computer speakers).
*Fountek and other drivers appear to be similarly good, but when you add shipping costs, they become relatively poor value.
**for the Faital drivers that Cask05 has recommended.
Cost reasons? That's not how I read the OP's words:
Note for metric users, that ebay listing has a fault - 9.93"(506.22mm) - should be about 250mm
VFM audio in Australia have the same (or very similar) horn for a few dollars less. The OP might find that shipping is cheaper / better from Australia.
The horns I've picked up from seller zxpc are pretty good, but they did arrive damaged (cracked), which I've not experienced with gear shipped 'locally'.
Just gathering all the helpful horn suggestions based on the comments for my own reference so I wont have to scroll and re-scroll.
The Klipsch 510 is still coming out the clear winner for me in terms of preference and size.
What's a fair price for these? If it's not too bad I'm thinking of posting a WTB in the Klipsch Forums.
Here are the gathered options:
Options:
Build type:
Crites Cornscala D Style
Econowave
MEH / Unity Horn
Horn Options:
Klipsch K-510
Altec 811 sized BiRadial sold by ZXPC
Emilar Radial
PYLE PH12S
Faital Pro LTH142
Electro Voice DH1506
RCF HF950
18 Sound XT464
Horn Flare Large Format 2" Throat 4 Bolt Mount
11” x 17" ABS 2" Bolt-On Long Throw Horn 90deg x 40deg For Many 2" Exit Driver 647356202421 | eBay
Driver Options:
Older Altec / JBL CD
Faital HF200 CD
NE65W-04 (FULL RANGE DRIVER)
Electro Voice HR90 CD
BMS 1.4” coaxial CD
Peerles 830983 (FullRange)
The Klipsch 510 is still coming out the clear winner for me in terms of preference and size.
What's a fair price for these? If it's not too bad I'm thinking of posting a WTB in the Klipsch Forums.
Here are the gathered options:
Options:
Build type:
Crites Cornscala D Style
Econowave
MEH / Unity Horn
Horn Options:
Klipsch K-510
Altec 811 sized BiRadial sold by ZXPC
Emilar Radial
PYLE PH12S
Faital Pro LTH142
Electro Voice DH1506
RCF HF950
18 Sound XT464
Horn Flare Large Format 2" Throat 4 Bolt Mount
11” x 17" ABS 2" Bolt-On Long Throw Horn 90deg x 40deg For Many 2" Exit Driver 647356202421 | eBay
Driver Options:
Older Altec / JBL CD
Faital HF200 CD
NE65W-04 (FULL RANGE DRIVER)
Electro Voice HR90 CD
BMS 1.4” coaxial CD
Peerles 830983 (FullRange)
Just to follow up, I'd recommend this one, already mentioned above:
2" Throat Horn Bolt-On 18"x10"For Assorted Bolt On 2"Exit Drivers 90degx 40deg(398) | eBay
The polars are about like the K-510 but note that this horn is about 50% larger volume than the K-510 (but that's still relatively small). It will require equalization with its mated 2" compression driver. Again, I'd recommend Faital Pro HF200 series drivers if you've got a choice.
Chris
2" Throat Horn Bolt-On 18"x10"For Assorted Bolt On 2"Exit Drivers 90degx 40deg(398) | eBay
The polars are about like the K-510 but note that this horn is about 50% larger volume than the K-510 (but that's still relatively small). It will require equalization with its mated 2" compression driver. Again, I'd recommend Faital Pro HF200 series drivers if you've got a choice.
Chris
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Thank you for this!
I’ve actually got a good lead on a pair of K510s that comes with a K69/P Audio BMD750s attached. Seller wont sell them seperately but since the K510s are rare enough, I’m in talks to buy it.
Will the BMD750(being a 2” compression driver with a 3” VC) accomodate low crossing (500hz) or am I better selling off the BMD750s after I get the K510s.
If the BMD750s can be made to work Im willing to explore making a 3way to relieve it of the hf duties.
Thanks!
I’ve actually got a good lead on a pair of K510s that comes with a K69/P Audio BMD750s attached. Seller wont sell them seperately but since the K510s are rare enough, I’m in talks to buy it.
Will the BMD750(being a 2” compression driver with a 3” VC) accomodate low crossing (500hz) or am I better selling off the BMD750s after I get the K510s.
If the BMD750s can be made to work Im willing to explore making a 3way to relieve it of the hf duties.
Thanks!
How did this go? Any result?
For performance at 500Hz, even with low power - "a puny 10 watt triode tube amp", displacement is a pretty important attribute. That is, if you make a 3-way, as described earlier:
...I think the best (only?) reason to sell off the BMD750s would be if you switched to a driver with more displacement: a CD with a 4" VC, or a small cone driver.
The conflict is probably cos people have different uses + expectations.
For a pro user, or someone who wants to rock out in a huge room, the compromises are too much. They'd highpass the 2" at 1kHz or higher to get higher output.
Other home users do run compression driver down low. For you, in a tiny listening space, the compromises will be even less than usual*
Any speaker will sound louder the closer you are. Horns also have the oddity that they usually measure better as you (or the microphone) get closer to the mouth, which works in your favour.
e.g. look up the ~60cm long "Inlow" paper mache horns (inlowsound.com) and compare the chart at 18' with the chart at 3' - the latter is a lot flatter.
*which is why I think you'd be well advised to give a tiny cone driver a go. Particularly with your close listening distance, they may be all you need. Lots of people like this one, which is currently on sale, so it'd be a very cheap experiment:
Fountek FE85 3" Full Range Speaker Driver
I set up my system using NE65s (now in stereo) and they only sound strained only when played at much louder than my normal listening levels. This is in a space that's approx 9x17m. In a 3x3m space, I think I'd die before the drivers did
@hollowboy: There's a commercial kit using the ne65 on a horn mated to a 12" woofer. I'm considering something similar, with a ph4525 horn, but a cheaper woofer (they use the xxls12 from peerless) and a minidsp setup rather than a passive crossover.
What strikes me is that the FR between 10khz and 20khz doesn't look that flat. What's your experience with EQ at the top of the FR with those ne65 ?
What strikes me is that the FR between 10khz and 20khz doesn't look that flat. What's your experience with EQ at the top of the FR with those ne65 ?
@00940 I hadn't seen that kit, interesting. It looks like they gave up a bit of sensitivity for the 28Hz extension.
To me, that's an odd decision: the box is only 60cm tall, so it would need a ~60cm stand (which I see as a waste of space). If I were designing it, I'd have made it more efficient, at the expense of extension, and then I'd get the extension back by adding a subwoofer - which I'd use as the stand (no space wasted).
That's exactly how I roll, except I'd try to get an equivalent horn without a slot (sharp angles) in the throat.
Personally, I don't think it needs to be flat - to me, that octave is fine as long as some output is there, and it is not horrible (no metallic peaks). I think people obsess too much about the 10,000-20,000Hz octave. Why not obsess just as much over the 10-20Hz octave? There's probably as much info there, and we are probably equally bad at actually hearing it
If ultra-flat to 20kHz is really important to you, maybe a waveguide on a normal tweeter would be your jam, e.g these:
Test Bench: Wavecor TW030WA12 30-mm Cloth Waveguide Loaded Tweeter | audioXpress
Test Peerless DX25TG09-04 (Vifa XD-270 F/4) am Waveguide WG-300 – Heissmann Acoustics
I've got a few small compression drivers, and it compares well to them. e.g. I have a JBL 2425J that is about as smooth, but the NE65 has better extension.
paper cone open frame driver for front horn
Post 35 shows it with no eq, measured at about 1m.
Post 45 is with minimal eq (just a shelf to reduce the output <2kHz) with the mic about 2.5m away - so there's more room clutter in the measurements (the mic was on a table, all the bumps that are common to both graphs are probably reflections from that and nearby junk).
That seems pretty decent for a no eq measurement in a workshop. If I shifted the system into a well-appointed listening room, I'd probably use a few dB of boost to get it flat to 15kHz.
To me, that's an odd decision: the box is only 60cm tall, so it would need a ~60cm stand (which I see as a waste of space). If I were designing it, I'd have made it more efficient, at the expense of extension, and then I'd get the extension back by adding a subwoofer - which I'd use as the stand (no space wasted).
That's exactly how I roll, except I'd try to get an equivalent horn without a slot (sharp angles) in the throat.
Personally, I don't think it needs to be flat - to me, that octave is fine as long as some output is there, and it is not horrible (no metallic peaks). I think people obsess too much about the 10,000-20,000Hz octave. Why not obsess just as much over the 10-20Hz octave? There's probably as much info there, and we are probably equally bad at actually hearing it
If ultra-flat to 20kHz is really important to you, maybe a waveguide on a normal tweeter would be your jam, e.g these:
Test Bench: Wavecor TW030WA12 30-mm Cloth Waveguide Loaded Tweeter | audioXpress
Test Peerless DX25TG09-04 (Vifa XD-270 F/4) am Waveguide WG-300 – Heissmann Acoustics
I've got a few small compression drivers, and it compares well to them. e.g. I have a JBL 2425J that is about as smooth, but the NE65 has better extension.
paper cone open frame driver for front horn
Post 35 shows it with no eq, measured at about 1m.
Post 45 is with minimal eq (just a shelf to reduce the output <2kHz) with the mic about 2.5m away - so there's more room clutter in the measurements (the mic was on a table, all the bumps that are common to both graphs are probably reflections from that and nearby junk).
That seems pretty decent for a no eq measurement in a workshop. If I shifted the system into a well-appointed listening room, I'd probably use a few dB of boost to get it flat to 15kHz.
Thx for the detailled answer.
Wrt the kit, they have a "fun" version, with higher sensitivity.
Horns with smooth profiles aren't easy to come by in Europe. I've seen the:
- eminence h2ea, a 60*40 horn with a 700hz crossover point.
- BMS 2230; 90*55, 700hz.
- ...and that's it.
From the look of it, I wouldn't be surprised if quint-store used those horns mentioned in post 94 by Cask05. Even with shipping, VAT and import taxes, the price is ok.
Wrt the FR. What's above 15khz certainly doesn't bother me much. A bit of eq to get the FR a bit flatter up to 15khz doesn't seem too bad either.
With a visaton w300 in a sealed enclosure, one could achieve a nice vintage look with sides made of plywood and the front made of black mdf.
Wrt the kit, they have a "fun" version, with higher sensitivity.
Horns with smooth profiles aren't easy to come by in Europe. I've seen the:
- eminence h2ea, a 60*40 horn with a 700hz crossover point.
- BMS 2230; 90*55, 700hz.
- ...and that's it.
From the look of it, I wouldn't be surprised if quint-store used those horns mentioned in post 94 by Cask05. Even with shipping, VAT and import taxes, the price is ok.
Wrt the FR. What's above 15khz certainly doesn't bother me much. A bit of eq to get the FR a bit flatter up to 15khz doesn't seem too bad either.
With a visaton w300 in a sealed enclosure, one could achieve a nice vintage look with sides made of plywood and the front made of black mdf.
Attachments
Hi all, Interesting thread !
FWIW, I've been crossing a 1.4" BMS coax CD at 650Hz running really loud.
I'm sure I could take crossover down to 500Hz using either a RCF HF950 or a little bit larger 18 Sound XT1464.
But since my application is live-sound and rattling my house, I play it safe at 650 Hz.
FWIW, I've been crossing a 1.4" BMS coax CD at 650Hz running really loud.
I'm sure I could take crossover down to 500Hz using either a RCF HF950 or a little bit larger 18 Sound XT1464.
But since my application is live-sound and rattling my house, I play it safe at 650 Hz.
What about this company?
MINPHASE-200 - Horns by Auto-Tech
That particular horn was available here in 2015 for $380 AUD which is surprisingly cheap for a large boutique item.
Nice.
I think the best look depends a lot on how much of the front baffle is taken up by the speaker hardware. A simple black front panel is a good idea when the woofer and/or horn are very large.
If not, I like a simple vintage timber look, like this:
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 Loudspeaker Review: Part 1
I experimented with an all wood horn largely for the timber aesthetic.
Horn FAST in timber
An easier + more flexible possibility I've considered is to similarly rear mount a small metal horn, like the attached picture* onto a (thick) wood panel, so that the wood forms the (visually dominant) last few cm of the horn mouth. With my tools / skills, it take a lot of grinding + sanding time, but I think it could look nice.
*several similar options on ebay: 'audio pipe', or the JBL / Selenium HL1450N, or PRV Audio WG 14-50CR
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- Auto-tech doesn't seem to have any 2" horns in an easy to mount package. The closest things are the seos 18 (size is ok but max 1.4" throat) or the seos 22 (but it's getting very wide). As a personal preference, I don't like the look of most of their horns to be true. I also don't like much the fact that I can't seem to find a price list anywhere on their site.
- Wrt look. The source of inspiration for me is the Tannoy Cheviot. Your wooden front looks nice too but I'm afraid my skills and tools are a bit too limited for that.
- Wrt look. The source of inspiration for me is the Tannoy Cheviot. Your wooden front looks nice too but I'm afraid my skills and tools are a bit too limited for that.
C'mon, you can do this
I feel like a personal trainer - I have something for each objection:
Their site also states "Individual order: Different colours, cut throat on diameter, mounting steel flange" - so you can get any horn done in black, and with a 2" throat.
They must send them out on request - there are some .pdf price lists on the web. The Seos horns seem to be 100-200 Euro, depending on size.
a) Within 5km of where I live, there are several communal makerspaces and workshops - for $40 I can use (share) a well curated woodshop (with three mounted saws, drill press, thicknesser, and multiple hand tools) for a day. There is probably something like that near you.
b) The only power tool I used for the wood horn was a router.
Other than that, it was largely a file, sandpaper and glue: see post 10 of that thread.
It would have gone faster / required fewer labour intensive steps if I'd:
I feel like a personal trainer - I have something for each objection:
Their K-HORN is slightly narrower, and looks like it fits your requirements.
Their site also states "Individual order: Different colours, cut throat on diameter, mounting steel flange" - so you can get any horn done in black, and with a 2" throat.
They must send them out on request - there are some .pdf price lists on the web. The Seos horns seem to be 100-200 Euro, depending on size.
You may not be as limited as you think.
a) Within 5km of where I live, there are several communal makerspaces and workshops - for $40 I can use (share) a well curated woodshop (with three mounted saws, drill press, thicknesser, and multiple hand tools) for a day. There is probably something like that near you.
b) The only power tool I used for the wood horn was a router.
Other than that, it was largely a file, sandpaper and glue: see post 10 of that thread.
It would have gone faster / required fewer labour intensive steps if I'd:
-Based it on a 2" alu horn rather than a wooden bowl
-Used multiple thin layers for the front baffle (not 19mm planks)
-Used multiple thin layers for the front baffle (not 19mm planks)
