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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
Smallest Footprint Horn and Driver that can reach 500hz
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Old 11th May 2018, 02:48 AM   #101
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
One clarification I've been trying to grapple with is if I aim to crossover to 500hz and not aim for the 20khz goal and just use a supertweeter to supplement the horn will this be more doable even if I use a shallower profile horn waveguide?
The usual problem with a super tweeter is that your mid horn mouth will be big, so the centre-to-centre spacing of the drivers is much larger than a conventional system. This spacing is more of a problem when your listening position is close, which is why people sometimes say that horns only work for large rooms.

Some people fiddle about and find a tweeter arrangement that works work for them, some people never manage to get it sounding quite right. Success might be dependent on your listening preferences, gear, patience, age (how much of your HF hearing is left) and expectations.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:11 AM   #102
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
As for a 2" fullrange driver with a horn, this seems to be another option but how far will that be from the sound of a comp driver + horn combo
If you compare 2 suitable drivers on the same horn, and both are equalised flat, there should be no difference in sound.

You'll notice a difference if (only) one driver has a problem, like the break up mode that Cask05 illustrated for the B&C DE750.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Though it's tempting to consider that I can cross even lower with this arrangement
Not as much as you might think:

A) is a typical 2" compression driver with 75mm diaphragm and 0.1mm excursion.
B) is a typical 2" full range driver with a 50mm diaphragm and 1.5mm excursion.

B) will have about 4x the displacement.

However, for horn loaded drivers, that doesn't give you an octave more low end - you're limited by the horn's size. If the run the driver lower than the horn will support, the excursion requirements go up more rapidly than 4x per octave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
My goals are:

1.) Efficiency (I have a puny 10 watt triode tube amp)
Does your amp needs a high impedance load? This might limit your driver selection. The 10 watt maximum might rule out a 2" full range - it depends on your SPL requirements. See posts 43-45 here

...but why not just try it and see? Digikey ships for free. You could have a pair of NE65W-04-ND delivered within a few days*. If they play loud enough for you, you could just stop there.

If they aren't loud enough, you'll have to spend more, but at least you'll know the ~ $US 1,000 extra** will be well spent, and you could demote the full range drivers to some other use (computer speakers).

*Fountek and other drivers appear to be similarly good, but when you add shipping costs, they become relatively poor value.

**for the Faital drivers that Cask05 has recommended.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:40 AM   #103
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
I'll look at alternative horns. If the K-510 is not feasible for cost reasons, the one mentioned above is probably the next best choice. It's about 50% larger in overall volume.
Cost reasons? That's not how I read the OP's words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
initial searches seem to indicate that they’re close to unobtainium and I dont think I want to order them with a driver already from Klipsch directly
Note for metric users, that ebay listing has a fault - 9.93"(506.22mm) - should be about 250mm

VFM audio in Australia have the same (or very similar) horn for a few dollars less. The OP might find that shipping is cheaper / better from Australia.

The horns I've picked up from seller zxpc are pretty good, but they did arrive damaged (cracked), which I've not experienced with gear shipped 'locally'.
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Old 12th May 2018, 03:16 AM   #104
hornwannabe is offline hornwannabe  Philippines
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Well if the fullrange option has it’s own set of limitations and isn’t that lower in crossover capabilities, I think the comp driver option seems to be ideal.
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Old 15th May 2018, 09:05 AM   #105
hornwannabe is offline hornwannabe  Philippines
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Just gathering all the helpful horn suggestions based on the comments for my own reference so I wont have to scroll and re-scroll.

The Klipsch 510 is still coming out the clear winner for me in terms of preference and size.

What's a fair price for these? If it's not too bad I'm thinking of posting a WTB in the Klipsch Forums.

Here are the gathered options:

Options:

Build type:

Crites Cornscala D Style
Econowave
MEH / Unity Horn

Horn Options:

Klipsch K-510

Altec 811 sized BiRadial sold by ZXPC
Emilar Radial
PYLE PH12S
Faital Pro LTH142
Electro Voice DH1506
RCF HF950
18 Sound XT464

Horn Flare Large Format 2" Throat 4 Bolt Mount

11” x 17" ABS 2" Bolt-On Long Throw Horn 90deg x 40deg For Many 2" Exit Driver 647356202421 | eBay

Driver Options:

Older Altec / JBL CD
Faital HF200 CD
NE65W-04 (FULL RANGE DRIVER)
Electro Voice HR90 CD
BMS 1.4” coaxial CD
Peerles 830983 (FullRange)
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:16 AM   #106
hornwannabe is offline hornwannabe  Philippines
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These also look interesting:

B&C Horn

PRV Horn
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Old 19th May 2018, 09:41 PM   #107
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Just to follow up, I'd recommend this one, already mentioned above:

2" Throat Horn Bolt-On 18"x10"For Assorted Bolt On 2"Exit Drivers 90degx 40deg(398) | eBay

The polars are about like the K-510 but note that this horn is about 50% larger volume than the K-510 (but that's still relatively small). It will require equalization with its mated 2" compression driver. Again, I'd recommend Faital Pro HF200 series drivers if you've got a choice.


Chris

Last edited by Cask05; 19th May 2018 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 20th May 2018, 03:52 AM   #108
hornwannabe is offline hornwannabe  Philippines
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Thank you for this!

I’ve actually got a good lead on a pair of K510s that comes with a K69/P Audio BMD750s attached. Seller wont sell them seperately but since the K510s are rare enough, I’m in talks to buy it.

Will the BMD750(being a 2” compression driver with a 3” VC) accomodate low crossing (500hz) or am I better selling off the BMD750s after I get the K510s.

If the BMD750s can be made to work Im willing to explore making a 3way to relieve it of the hf duties.

Thanks!
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Old 1st June 2018, 08:06 AM   #109
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
I’ve actually got a good lead on a pair of K510s that comes with a K69/P Audio BMD750s attached. Seller wont sell them seperately but since the K510s are rare enough, I’m in talks to buy it.
How did this go? Any result?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Will the BMD750(being a 2” compression driver with a 3” VC) accomodate low crossing (500hz) or am I better selling off the BMD750s after I get the K510s.
For performance at 500Hz, even with low power - "a puny 10 watt triode tube amp", displacement is a pretty important attribute. That is, if you make a 3-way, as described earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
if I aim to crossover to 500hz and not aim for the 20khz goal and just use a supertweeter to supplement the horn
...I think the best (only?) reason to sell off the BMD750s would be if you switched to a driver with more displacement: a CD with a 4" VC, or a small cone driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornwannabe View Post
Also I seem to be getting some conflicting information with some saying that the 500hz crossover goal is doable for a 2" comp driver and some saying that it isn't. I'm thinking that it may be possible but by doing that some added complications may arise.
The conflict is probably cos people have different uses + expectations.

For a pro user, or someone who wants to rock out in a huge room, the compromises are too much. They'd highpass the 2" at 1kHz or higher to get higher output.

Other home users do run compression driver down low. For you, in a tiny listening space, the compromises will be even less than usual*

Any speaker will sound louder the closer you are. Horns also have the oddity that they usually measure better as you (or the microphone) get closer to the mouth, which works in your favour.

e.g. look up the ~60cm long "Inlow" paper mache horns (inlowsound.com) and compare the chart at 18' with the chart at 3' - the latter is a lot flatter.

*which is why I think you'd be well advised to give a tiny cone driver a go. Particularly with your close listening distance, they may be all you need. Lots of people like this one, which is currently on sale, so it'd be a very cheap experiment:
Fountek FE85 3" Full Range Speaker Driver

I set up my system using NE65s (now in stereo) and they only sound strained only when played at much louder than my normal listening levels. This is in a space that's approx 9x17m. In a 3x3m space, I think I'd die before the drivers did
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Old 1st June 2018, 09:39 AM   #110
00940 is offline 00940  Belgium
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@hollowboy: There's a commercial kit using the ne65 on a horn mated to a 12" woofer. I'm considering something similar, with a ph4525 horn, but a cheaper woofer (they use the xxls12 from peerless) and a minidsp setup rather than a passive crossover.

What strikes me is that the FR between 10khz and 20khz doesn't look that flat. What's your experience with EQ at the top of the FR with those ne65 ?
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