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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update
Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:09 AM   #21
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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That is a really nice series of Peerless woofers, but the XT25 BG and TG versions are waaaay too big. Best to use the slim versions if possible.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:28 AM   #22
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Thanks for those links, Steve!
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Old 14th April 2018, 07:44 PM   #23
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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We are all toilers in the Vinyard of loudspeakers...

Mere mortals attempting to make sense of the pattern.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

IMO, this is a pretty good attempt at a goodish loudspeaker. I had a rare success at predicting the 10-1 winner of a tough race today. I thought Tiger Roll might win the tough Grand National. I would never put my money on a bet for this, because Da Bookies always win, but am experienced enough to notice that a relatively young (8-y-o) and lightly handicapped (10St-13Oz in our bizarre British units) horse might win. So it turned out.

I won't currently attempt to dissect that complex crossover. TBH, I'm not expecting it to defy the laws of physics. I know how those work. YouTube

I have seen various attempts on the 5" polycone plus 1" tweeter theme:

Click the image to open in full size.

Doubling them up is a good approach if you have money to burn. What causes distortion is displacement. Free a mid from bass duties and it sounds cleaner. A simple question of linearity. Or wall-mount it for an extra 6dB bass level.
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #24
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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It may help to understand it with a little more background.

M&K sold an external control module for these speakers in professional situations. When you used it, you were to use the Special inputs (+ and -)

But for home, the normal connections were used (IN+ and IN-)

Think of the Special inputs as bypassing the EQ sections and using only the HP and LP filters. You can see this way that even with switches set to bypass there is still some extra EQ being applied.

So, the actual crossover is a very simple 3rd order HP and 2nd order LP. Everything else is EQ.
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:56 PM   #25
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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After looking at the shaping curves, I really might now do a lot of upgrading here. I'd be seriously tempted to do a white paper design instead.

OP, you might also want to try listening via the Special inputs, instead. I'd be really curious to know how that sounds to you.

Best,

E
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:20 PM   #26
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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OK, I think I see a couple of mistakes in the schematic. Of course, it may not be, but this is how this now makes a lot more sense:

Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update-1b-png

I've simulated this a little using XSim, with ideal tweeters and 5" Peerless woofers I happen to have data for. The range of values make a lot more sense now. The midrange contol causes a broad depression centered around 500-700 Hz and the treble control acts like a volume control, and the levels blend much better.

The tweeter level adjusts from 0 to about -6 dB, again, given ideal drivers, YMMV given actual tweeter impedance curves.

Here is a pic of the transfer function with the adjustment resistors shorted:

Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update-1b_min-jpg

As well as using the maximum resistance:

Miller & Kreisel S-1B satellite crossover update-1b_max-jpg
Attached Images
File Type: png S-1B.png (152.9 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg S-1B_Max.jpg (119.8 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg S-1B_Min.jpg (119.5 KB, 76 views)
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:29 PM   #27
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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It's all down to the Laws of Physics, in the end, I feel.

We know that Classical Mechanics is wrong. UberGeek Sidney Coleman proved that: YouTube

For all that, Classical Mechanics holds some surprises: Orbital resonance - Wikipedia

Click the image to open in full size.

Nature throwing up a sort of exact 1:2:4 resonance. In fact the common Wiki approach lacks mathematical rigour. Precession of axes (the perigee) plays a part. We mere monkeys lack a deeper understanding of rotation. In multi-dimensions, 4D upwards, rotation is about a plane, not an axis. The axis is a purely 3D phenomena. And since we live in a a 4D spacetime, I'm not betting my life on the axis.

What I find fascinating is that in the proveably correct Quantum Theory lurks a half-unit of information. What does that mean? Simply that an Electron might have a spin half up, or half down. Or however you measure it, it is opposite to its other half. The Local Schrodinger Cat is either dead or alive. The other one is the opposite.
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:58 PM   #28
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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One other minor note, I think C3 goes directly to ground as well. Only tracing and measurement can tell for sure though!

Erik
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #29
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I guess I'm not getting my email notifications.

Erik, from what I have read, I'm not supposed to run into special inputs direct from amp, or in my case, the sub. I'm pretty sure they are for using the external control box M&K sold.

My goal for these speakers is still the same, which is replacing caps and resistors. That's doable for me at this point. The coils look good, and as I mentioned earlier, the speakers sound good as they are. I'm just wanting to be freshened up for the next 10+ years, and be able to use the contour controls to experiment in my new listening environment.

At the very least, I can easily find replacement NP electrolytic caps of good quality that are affordable (to me) ... but if I decide to go with Mills wire wound to replace the cement resistors, I see the ohm values don't match. I know I can use the next higher voltage rating. Then there is the matter of why the stock resistors were glued together, which I wouldn't do on the Mills ... but wondering if there is a minimum amount of space needed between them.

Lastly, I can't figure out how to get the pcb's off the panel. I'm guessing, but need confirmation, that I have to remove the solder on the speaker terminals, shown in the photo below. I broke a small piece off one terminal that fortunately doesn't effect it's function, but being picky about stuff like that, I may want to find a clean replacement for both speakers, since the same terminal on the other speaker had the same piece missing, which I'm guessing the previous owner may have tried to remove, and once it broke, gave up and sold to me?
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File Type: jpg terminal-removal-desolder.jpg (573.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg broken-spkr-term.jpg (569.2 KB, 7 views)
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:00 PM   #30
eriksquires is offline eriksquires  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwood61 View Post
I guess I'm not getting my email notifications.

Erik, from what I have read, I'm not supposed to run into special inputs direct from amp, or in my case, the sub. I'm pretty sure they are for using the external control box M&K sold.
Exactly as I stated above. It doesn't explain the schematic fully, so I think there were some mistakes, which is VERY common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwood61 View Post
My goal for these speakers is still the same, which is replacing caps and resistors. That's doable for me at this point. The coils look good, and as I mentioned earlier, the speakers sound good as they are. I'm just wanting to be freshened up for the next 10+ years, and be able to use the contour controls to experiment in my new listening environment.

At the very least, I can easily find replacement NP electrolytic caps of good quality that are affordable (to me) ... but if I decide to go with Mills wire wound to replace the cement resistors, I see the ohm values don't match. I know I can use the next higher voltage rating. Then there is the matter of why the stock resistors were glued together, which I wouldn't do on the Mills ... but wondering if there is a minimum amount of space needed between them.

Lastly, I can't figure out how to get the pcb's off the panel. I'm guessing, but need confirmation, that I have to remove the solder on the speaker terminals, shown in the photo below. I broke a small piece off one terminal that fortunately doesn't effect it's function, but being picky about stuff like that, I may want to find a clean replacement for both speakers, since the same terminal on the other speaker had the same piece missing, which I'm guessing the previous owner may have tried to remove, and once it broke, gave up and sold to me?
Gluing was usually done to prevent shipping damage. Those big resistors are heavy, so when they vibrate they carry a lot more kinetic energy than little SMD or 1/8 Watt resistors. You should snip them at the PCB, measure, and then use a hot air gun to soften the glue, with a broad blade to help you pull them off the board. Think chisel or putty knife. Then you can de-solder the ends.

Those big speaker connectors need a big *** solder gun. I use a temperature controlled one with a broad soldering tip. Your average solder wand just will not work.

I think replacing all the caps is a good idea, but if you want to get fancy, C1/C2 are the items to upgrade.

Best,

E
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