I think some of this is sinking in. I have a thread going over at AK, so now I have you and another guy giving me some good insight, and I should add, telling me the same thing, which is reassuring. So thanks!
What I'm now realizing is that the original design used 10% tolerance components (caps/resistors), which means I have a bigger range of values to choose from even if I limit myself to values within +/-5% ... since many of the MKP caps I'm looking at are typically 1%. So C1 can be +/-0.8uF for the 16uF cap. Am I'm getting this now?
Since the price of Audyn Q4 0.01uF, 400v MKP's at Parts Express are only $1.37, I could grab a batch of those ... unless I can find a smaller same value "bypass" cap. I need to look around since C1/C2 are tight spots and I don't know how close my bypass cap can be to the contour adjust pots or inductors.
What I'm now realizing is that the original design used 10% tolerance components (caps/resistors), which means I have a bigger range of values to choose from even if I limit myself to values within +/-5% ... since many of the MKP caps I'm looking at are typically 1%. So C1 can be +/-0.8uF for the 16uF cap. Am I'm getting this now?
Since the price of Audyn Q4 0.01uF, 400v MKP's at Parts Express are only $1.37, I could grab a batch of those ... unless I can find a smaller same value "bypass" cap. I need to look around since C1/C2 are tight spots and I don't know how close my bypass cap can be to the contour adjust pots or inductors.
Yes.
Depends how fancy you want to get. Some makers measure every driver individually, and adjust the crossover parts independently.
I mean, just because they used 10% parts doesn't mean they didn't cherry pick. However, upgrading, giving yourself a 5% leeway in nominal part values is reasonable.
Best,
E
Depends how fancy you want to get. Some makers measure every driver individually, and adjust the crossover parts independently.
I mean, just because they used 10% parts doesn't mean they didn't cherry pick. However, upgrading, giving yourself a 5% leeway in nominal part values is reasonable.
Best,
E
Well, didn't get parts yet. Waiting for some recommendation's from Parts Connexion. Hoping to hear back today or tomorrow. I'm curious to see if I can get all or most of my parts from them. I've always had good service and product from them.
Erik, have you tried the Vishay Roderstein MKP1837 0.01uF bypass caps? There are more than a few favorable reviews. They are squarish, rather than round, but if the leads are long enough to reach around to the "main" cap, I can see them working.
Cleaned the back side of one crossover board. You can eat off it now.
Erik, have you tried the Vishay Roderstein MKP1837 0.01uF bypass caps? There are more than a few favorable reviews. They are squarish, rather than round, but if the leads are long enough to reach around to the "main" cap, I can see them working.
Cleaned the back side of one crossover board. You can eat off it now.
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I updated a pair of M&K S-1B's a few years ago, including the crossovers . I used Mundorf electrolytics sourced from Parts Connection; these aren't exotic, but they were reasonably priced and came in the correct values. One of those terrible speaker wire pinch terminals was broken on mine, so I cut them out, and glued a piece of ABS in their place. I installed modern 5 way binding posts in the ABS, and squeezed a wire from them to the back of the PCB. The final result worked out well. I was never able to find a purpose for the second set of inputs on the speakers, so I never connected them at all.
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Unfortunately the speakers weren't functional when I first acquired them, so I can't provide a before and after report on the sound of the recap. Each side had a bad mid, and someone had "tinkered" with one of the crossovers replacing caps with a combination of different electrolytics and film caps. I bought used mids off eBay, and restored the crossover caps to factory values based on a schematic posted elsewhere on this site. The sounded very good once I got them back together. I also had the matching sub which was 100% original, and matched very nicely.
One more thing that just came to mind...I had to cut down the length of the binding posts to get the crossover board back in place. It was a bit if a hassle, but those factory pinch terminals are so horrid it was worth the effort.
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Agreed. However, since mine are in mint shape, aside from a small piece of plastic on a spring terminal on each speaker (not viewable really), I want to keep them stock, with the obvious exception of what I'm doing on the crossover. An update on that ...
Well, I got my parts and low and behold, I realized that 20% tolerance wasn't a good idea. To be honest, I didn't pay attention to that value, and in the end, after soldering one set of three caps, I got a value over the 10% tolerance designed into the circuit. Plus, I think having three caps in a grouping is too clumsy-looking, not to mention C1-C3 where I'd be adding a 0.1uF film bypass cap. So I just placed an order for "better" Mundorf Ecaps with 5% tolerance. Here's my part list for posterity, and once I get these installed and can have a listen, I'll report back. I hope I will hear "some" difference in a positive light, or I may feel like I wasted too many hours hunting and selecting what I thought might be the right solution on a budget.
Mundorf MLytic® Ecaps (all are 10mm x 30mm unless noted below)
1.00uF, 50Vac - 70Vdc (10x20mm)
2.70uF, 50Vac - 70Vdc
3.9uF,50Vac - 70Vdc
6.80uF, 50Vac - 70Vd, (12x30mm)
10.00uF, 100Vdc
15.00uF, 100Vdc
22.00uF, 100Vdc
also ordered a foot of Mundorf 24 awg silver/gold hookup wire for where I'll need to extend the length of conductors on C1 and C2. Wire is insulated and solid, which should help me position caps well.
I still plan to add the Vishay-Roderstein film bypass capacitors that measure 0.1uF (MKP 1837 Series), which because they are film caps, are almost dead on value. These will only go on C1 - C3.
Well, I got my parts and low and behold, I realized that 20% tolerance wasn't a good idea. To be honest, I didn't pay attention to that value, and in the end, after soldering one set of three caps, I got a value over the 10% tolerance designed into the circuit. Plus, I think having three caps in a grouping is too clumsy-looking, not to mention C1-C3 where I'd be adding a 0.1uF film bypass cap. So I just placed an order for "better" Mundorf Ecaps with 5% tolerance. Here's my part list for posterity, and once I get these installed and can have a listen, I'll report back. I hope I will hear "some" difference in a positive light, or I may feel like I wasted too many hours hunting and selecting what I thought might be the right solution on a budget.
Mundorf MLytic® Ecaps (all are 10mm x 30mm unless noted below)
1.00uF, 50Vac - 70Vdc (10x20mm)
2.70uF, 50Vac - 70Vdc
3.9uF,50Vac - 70Vdc
6.80uF, 50Vac - 70Vd, (12x30mm)
10.00uF, 100Vdc
15.00uF, 100Vdc
22.00uF, 100Vdc
also ordered a foot of Mundorf 24 awg silver/gold hookup wire for where I'll need to extend the length of conductors on C1 and C2. Wire is insulated and solid, which should help me position caps well.
I still plan to add the Vishay-Roderstein film bypass capacitors that measure 0.1uF (MKP 1837 Series), which because they are film caps, are almost dead on value. These will only go on C1 - C3.
Finally got one crossover done today. Looks nice and sounds nice. But I have a small problem. When I push in on the Treble control, sound cuts down. Not off, down, as in to the level of the lowest setting, which is dull. When I don't push on it, no problem.
All the solder traces are good, or at least were before I installed the board. There was no flexing during that process. Before I desolder the main terminals again, I wanted to see if anyone has a suggestion.
Additional info that may be important ... there was white paste around the base of each tone control shaft that covered all the solder points for each position. I asked Ken K about it and he didn't remember what that was. I assumed it was some protective paste put on to prevent shorting out?? I did not replace that "goo" ...
I pulled the crossover out to play the speaker while moving new caps around and didn't notice any change. The change ONLY occurred when pushing on the control shaft. The midrange control shaft/pot has no issue.
Any ideas?
All the solder traces are good, or at least were before I installed the board. There was no flexing during that process. Before I desolder the main terminals again, I wanted to see if anyone has a suggestion.
Additional info that may be important ... there was white paste around the base of each tone control shaft that covered all the solder points for each position. I asked Ken K about it and he didn't remember what that was. I assumed it was some protective paste put on to prevent shorting out?? I did not replace that "goo" ...
I pulled the crossover out to play the speaker while moving new caps around and didn't notice any change. The change ONLY occurred when pushing on the control shaft. The midrange control shaft/pot has no issue.
Any ideas?
Just investigated some more and what I notice is that with the main shaft is pushed hard enough, you can see if move from the inside of the crossover ... it moves maybe 0.5 - 0.75mm and it's at the end of that movement, the tweeters are losing signal ... when I leave the switch at any setting, no issue. So possibly, this is simply a weak point of the pot that since it won't be in the "pushed in" state, except for pushing the plastic knob onto the shaft, there may not be anything to be concerned about.
I also "feel" like the missing goop is not an issue, since what I think is happening is that pressure, pushing the potentiometer shaft inward, is causing "something" to lose a strong connection.
Thoughts? Feel free to knock sense into me so I can move on to the other crossover.
I also "feel" like the missing goop is not an issue, since what I think is happening is that pressure, pushing the potentiometer shaft inward, is causing "something" to lose a strong connection.
Thoughts? Feel free to knock sense into me so I can move on to the other crossover.
Went ahead and finished the other crossover ... I figure what I'm experiencing is the wiper is loosing connection when I push the knob in, which ain't how you normally use it.
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Holy mackerel. Ok, so right off the bat, it was worth the effort! I'm going to run the speakers with the Burmester CD Sampler 2 for a few hours ... great variation of material. I have never worked on crossovers, so I have no idea what to expect in terms of "burn in". If there is no burn in, I can honestly say these sound nice, and I don't even have the sub hooked up. Right now, they are playing through my Sansui BA-3000. The main power caps in there are also Mundorf. I have no idea if it makes any difference, but I like the idea of having the same "quality". I'm really surprised at the amount of bass the S-1B's have on their own. As I type, I am listening to these at a low volume, and at this level, they don't need a sub.
I do have a Miller & Kreisel V-125 sub which is nice, but a little too big for my room. I'm trying to get my hands on a MX-70B ... we'll see how that goes.
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Holy mackerel. Ok, so right off the bat, it was worth the effort! I'm going to run the speakers with the Burmester CD Sampler 2 for a few hours ... great variation of material. I have never worked on crossovers, so I have no idea what to expect in terms of "burn in". If there is no burn in, I can honestly say these sound nice, and I don't even have the sub hooked up. Right now, they are playing through my Sansui BA-3000. The main power caps in there are also Mundorf. I have no idea if it makes any difference, but I like the idea of having the same "quality". I'm really surprised at the amount of bass the S-1B's have on their own. As I type, I am listening to these at a low volume, and at this level, they don't need a sub.
I do have a Miller & Kreisel V-125 sub which is nice, but a little too big for my room. I'm trying to get my hands on a MX-70B ... we'll see how that goes.
one week update ...
I've been running these for the better part of a week and my impressions ...
For a little background on my system to put this in context. My listening room is also my office. It's 11' wide by 13' long, with an open closet at one end, giving me 2 more feet, to some degree. I have a vaulted ceiling on the long dimension, and doorway is at an angle on one back corner of the room.
I'm using a Sansui CA-2000 preamplifier (stock) to control both setups ... main is Vandersteen 3A driven in mono by Parasound HCA-1500 amps (630 wpc). Speaker wire = Canare Star-Quad bi-wire.
The Miller & Kreisel S-1B's + V-125 sub are running through my restored Sansui BA-3000 (170 wpc). Speaker wire = Supra Ply 3.4 (my favorite wire)
Listening to a copy of the Burmester CD Sampler 2, track 11, Tin Pan Alley - Stevie Ray .... Wow!! Tone controls are set at "4" for treble and midrange.
I'm pretty sure that I could sell my Vandies and Parasound, and enjoy these. The V-125 works really well, but I can tell a different push-pull 8" driver M&K sub would match better. We're splitting hairs here, but I'd like a smaller sub in my space.
For this reason, I would say that the Vandersteen speakers blend better. But I think the driver array design of the S-1B's gives it an advantage. Set at "4", the presentation is a little more forward than the Vandersteen. But I like it. If you consider the cost for both setups (speaker/amp), it's even more amazing that the S-1B's really shine.
I can't do a true comparison with the S-1B's before crossover update, but the difference is noticeable. Image separation is cleaner, soundstage is wider and helps you feel like you are there. If you are familiar with Tin Pan Alley, there is some really nice atmosphere created by ambient sounds and decay of strings and drummer hitting the sticks against the drum rim. That sound of that smacking to the tempo has a nice decay that makes you feel like you are in the studio. Bass is clean and tight with no distortion. Even when turning up to loud levels that would **** off my neighbors if they were home right now ... the speakers sound effortless, and almost wet. Prior to the upgrade, the sound was good, but now, it's opened up in every way.
In the end, I now have two enjoyable options for my music pleasure. If I want more laid back sound, I can use the Vandersteens ... more forward sound, the M&K's ... with the added benefit of the M&K's being a good option for playing around with placement, and tone controls. To be fair to the 3A's, they should be in a larger room. I have to play around with placement to prevent some reflection issues that are more noticeable with music that has a lot going on.
I will be honest and say that if I had to pick just one setup, to better fit my space, and/or to sell off gear to raise money to restore more gear, I'd keep the sat/sub system. I never would have thought that would be the case since I think most of the audio community would agree with me that big floor standers seem the way to go for big sound. I have heard great small speakers, but at a few thousand clams, or more, are out of my reach.
I've been running these for the better part of a week and my impressions ...
For a little background on my system to put this in context. My listening room is also my office. It's 11' wide by 13' long, with an open closet at one end, giving me 2 more feet, to some degree. I have a vaulted ceiling on the long dimension, and doorway is at an angle on one back corner of the room.
I'm using a Sansui CA-2000 preamplifier (stock) to control both setups ... main is Vandersteen 3A driven in mono by Parasound HCA-1500 amps (630 wpc). Speaker wire = Canare Star-Quad bi-wire.
The Miller & Kreisel S-1B's + V-125 sub are running through my restored Sansui BA-3000 (170 wpc). Speaker wire = Supra Ply 3.4 (my favorite wire)
Listening to a copy of the Burmester CD Sampler 2, track 11, Tin Pan Alley - Stevie Ray .... Wow!! Tone controls are set at "4" for treble and midrange.
I'm pretty sure that I could sell my Vandies and Parasound, and enjoy these. The V-125 works really well, but I can tell a different push-pull 8" driver M&K sub would match better. We're splitting hairs here, but I'd like a smaller sub in my space.
For this reason, I would say that the Vandersteen speakers blend better. But I think the driver array design of the S-1B's gives it an advantage. Set at "4", the presentation is a little more forward than the Vandersteen. But I like it. If you consider the cost for both setups (speaker/amp), it's even more amazing that the S-1B's really shine.
I can't do a true comparison with the S-1B's before crossover update, but the difference is noticeable. Image separation is cleaner, soundstage is wider and helps you feel like you are there. If you are familiar with Tin Pan Alley, there is some really nice atmosphere created by ambient sounds and decay of strings and drummer hitting the sticks against the drum rim. That sound of that smacking to the tempo has a nice decay that makes you feel like you are in the studio. Bass is clean and tight with no distortion. Even when turning up to loud levels that would **** off my neighbors if they were home right now ... the speakers sound effortless, and almost wet. Prior to the upgrade, the sound was good, but now, it's opened up in every way.
In the end, I now have two enjoyable options for my music pleasure. If I want more laid back sound, I can use the Vandersteens ... more forward sound, the M&K's ... with the added benefit of the M&K's being a good option for playing around with placement, and tone controls. To be fair to the 3A's, they should be in a larger room. I have to play around with placement to prevent some reflection issues that are more noticeable with music that has a lot going on.
I will be honest and say that if I had to pick just one setup, to better fit my space, and/or to sell off gear to raise money to restore more gear, I'd keep the sat/sub system. I never would have thought that would be the case since I think most of the audio community would agree with me that big floor standers seem the way to go for big sound. I have heard great small speakers, but at a few thousand clams, or more, are out of my reach.
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