Hello and welcome to the Jugs MK II. It's been 10 years since the first Jugs shocked the world. Super Store was once again the inspiration: there must be someone there looking out for me. Any way down to business. These speakers come as a complete system. Starting with an SMSL m7 DAC driving a Breeze Audio Linkwitz Riley 2 way 24dB octave 2KHz crossover and 2 Breeze Audio TPA3116 Texas Instruments Amps(Bi-AMPed). Power comes from a Phoenix Contact Trio 24VDC/10A power supply.
The speakers are built into a 7 liter jug with a 5cm x 20cm (2" PVC tube) port (60Hz). I'm using the a SB Acoustics 5" PolyProp speaker sb15mfc304 with an Eton 26 HD 3 tweeter.
So what's the big deal, I had to post this. Well the bass extension is down to 47Hz! and they don't seem to screw anything up. These babies are inviting the neighbors over to party. LOL I got everything at ebay, Solen, Amazon and Super Store ~$1100 Canadian
Tweak monkeys can swap the opAMPs, and adjust the supply voltage.
I would crack rebutter the TPA 3116s.
Have a nice day.
The speakers are built into a 7 liter jug with a 5cm x 20cm (2" PVC tube) port (60Hz). I'm using the a SB Acoustics 5" PolyProp speaker sb15mfc304 with an Eton 26 HD 3 tweeter.
So what's the big deal, I had to post this. Well the bass extension is down to 47Hz! and they don't seem to screw anything up. These babies are inviting the neighbors over to party. LOL I got everything at ebay, Solen, Amazon and Super Store ~$1100 Canadian
Tweak monkeys can swap the opAMPs, and adjust the supply voltage.
I would crack rebutter the TPA 3116s.
Have a nice day.
Attachments
The first pass at the golden ears went well. The 6" Aluminum Black drivers (SB Acoustics SB17NBAC35-4) were more at ease, and the 2" ports could use a flare; but didn't huff and puff too much. Paired with the Satori (SB Acoustics tw29rn) traded better mid-range for top end shine. The preferred port tuning was 50Hz (35cm).
I built my own Meccano set (lots of work)/ tweeter mounts. So now time line is just a matter tweaking. They allow pan/tilt/zoom/height adjustment.
The Breeze Audio TPA3116 didn't turn their Sanyo knockoff caps inside out, nor did they break a sweat driving things real loud (@24VDC).
The Breeze Audio LR24 crossover, sounds better at full volume. I'd guess the pot is on the output and increases the output impedance when not cranked. So you have to deal with volume up steam(SMSL m7). Which isn't a problem with the great noise floor of these components.
The final setup was a 12" equilateral triangle in a large studio. The speakers didn't have a problem filling in the center.
At home the 2" ports bipolar dysfunction was tamed with acoustic treatment behind them, or else there was a mid-range cancellation.
Super happy with the way these are coming along!
There are three potential problems:
1> the SMSL m7 DAC wakes from power off with the volume rather high
2> powering down the crossover before the Amps has a thump
3> discharging (personal) static electricity on the speaks, makes a loud pop
Later
I built my own Meccano set (lots of work)/ tweeter mounts. So now time line is just a matter tweaking. They allow pan/tilt/zoom/height adjustment.
The Breeze Audio TPA3116 didn't turn their Sanyo knockoff caps inside out, nor did they break a sweat driving things real loud (@24VDC).
The Breeze Audio LR24 crossover, sounds better at full volume. I'd guess the pot is on the output and increases the output impedance when not cranked. So you have to deal with volume up steam(SMSL m7). Which isn't a problem with the great noise floor of these components.
The final setup was a 12" equilateral triangle in a large studio. The speakers didn't have a problem filling in the center.
At home the 2" ports bipolar dysfunction was tamed with acoustic treatment behind them, or else there was a mid-range cancellation.
Super happy with the way these are coming along!
There are three potential problems:
1> the SMSL m7 DAC wakes from power off with the volume rather high
2> powering down the crossover before the Amps has a thump
3> discharging (personal) static electricity on the speaks, makes a loud pop
Later
Attachments
Interesting idea for an enclosure 
. Have you thought about making a small baffle for the tweeter? Just something to extend the faceplate into a non-round shape would do wonders for it. The edge diffraction on a flat circular baffle is pretty bad: Diffraction from baffle edges
. Have you thought about making a small baffle for the tweeter? Just something to extend the faceplate into a non-round shape would do wonders for it. The edge diffraction on a flat circular baffle is pretty bad: Diffraction from baffle edgesI see your point and will try to detect/measure any diffraction anomalies. I think a better approach: if needed. Cut off the flange to 70mm and add a shallow horn wrapping back to a bullet shape like a half football stuck on the back of the tweeter. That way there would be a smoother transition/no edge. The formulas are for piston type drivers so there are problems using them on a ring radiator.
If B&W can put a tweeter on a cabinet without a baffle, maybe I can..
Thx gave me something to dig into.
If B&W can put a tweeter on a cabinet without a baffle, maybe I can..
Thx gave me something to dig into.
"Trimming" the "baffle"(reduce the physical diameter) on the Satori tw29r to 70mm. If my math is right it moves the baffle step to 2.45Khz. {F=343m/s / 140mm} With the crossover at 2.2KHz the majority of energy from the tweeter is in half space (directional).
Do you think that will improve the level discontinuity?
The "piston" diameter is ~35mm
Do you think that will improve the level discontinuity?
The "piston" diameter is ~35mm
Removed the Satori mounting ring, reducing the "baffle" to ~70mm. Added a foam ram between the tweeter and woofer (can't get the tweeter closer without modding the mount ~175mm).
Reduced the PSU to (min) 21.78V... sounds more relaxed, maybe?
Time for a golden extended home demo.
On to the Jugs MK II.6 Poly builds.
Still real happy. There is some resonance on the jug surface which will have to be looked into. Maybe a heavy rubber ring or two: compression fit. Suspending the jug just touching a body of water: should make it easy to see which frequencies (sweep it) are coming out sideways(don't have a contact mic/pressure sensor).
I found some small 120Vac relays so it should be possible to interlock the TPA3116 mute feature with it's power supply(ac) and crossover power(ac) (idiot proofing).
That's about it,
Later
Reduced the PSU to (min) 21.78V... sounds more relaxed, maybe?
Time for a golden extended home demo.
On to the Jugs MK II.6 Poly builds.
Still real happy. There is some resonance on the jug surface which will have to be looked into. Maybe a heavy rubber ring or two: compression fit. Suspending the jug just touching a body of water: should make it easy to see which frequencies (sweep it) are coming out sideways(don't have a contact mic/pressure sensor).
I found some small 120Vac relays so it should be possible to interlock the TPA3116 mute feature with it's power supply(ac) and crossover power(ac) (idiot proofing).
That's about it,
Later
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So the half space, full space: Baffle step conversation...I totally agree if you mount a speaker on a pole in the middle of nowhere, the bottom end will get sucked out...at least 4dB. But in what I would consider more normal usage/listening environments it isn't that big a deal. First full space> isn't when your driver is near the ground: or near the ground and a wall or two. So it's a non-issue from what I've heard with these speakers.
On a side: I have switched to TPA3255 chip amps and things keep getting better. More detail and better low end at low levels. I'm using the 3e-Audio version and have a ground plane noise spike getting into the frontend probably from the passive Vmid. Not a fan of the single supply frontend. But that is another story. The PCB is clean to about 70W per channel so it's not all tears.
I put a UPC 1237 speaker protection PCB in. I had to defeat the "protection" (lifted the sense resistors) and increased the series resistor for the coils. One leg of each output goes thought the relays. So it's just a turn on/off mute. Using a larger version of the Trio PSU 48VDC/10A all in a Lian Li PC case
On a side: I have switched to TPA3255 chip amps and things keep getting better. More detail and better low end at low levels. I'm using the 3e-Audio version and have a ground plane noise spike getting into the frontend probably from the passive Vmid. Not a fan of the single supply frontend. But that is another story. The PCB is clean to about 70W per channel so it's not all tears.
I put a UPC 1237 speaker protection PCB in. I had to defeat the "protection" (lifted the sense resistors) and increased the series resistor for the coils. One leg of each output goes thought the relays. So it's just a turn on/off mute. Using a larger version of the Trio PSU 48VDC/10A all in a Lian Li PC case
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HaHa, the Jugs that shocked the World! I suppose this is a Nautilus idea in the end.
The teardrop shape has some advantages.
It does seem that TMM's idea of a similar treatment of the tweeter has some merit.
I did a thought experiment a while back on spherical loudspeakers. It gets away from the square box in the square room.
In thinking outside the box, I think people were playing with IKEA salad bowls as enclosures. I conclude this would be an excellent idea for home HiFi for Eskimos. You, know... perfect for Igloos.
Keep up the good work.
The teardrop shape has some advantages.
It does seem that TMM's idea of a similar treatment of the tweeter has some merit.
I did a thought experiment a while back on spherical loudspeakers. It gets away from the square box in the square room.
In thinking outside the box, I think people were playing with IKEA salad bowls as enclosures. I conclude this would be an excellent idea for home HiFi for Eskimos. You, know... perfect for Igloos.
Keep up the good work.
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Here are some pictures of the original Jugs. They don't really go down as far as you'd like to match up with a Sub properly (80Hz) but they are fantastic for surround gaming (localizing that wolf in the forest). Delco 3" Poly / JBL Ti 1" in a 2 liter jug. Chuck in recycled perforated mat for stuffing, for a little dampening. Simple Cap/coil crossover: jazzed with battery bias and foil coil crossed @3.5KHz
As for the round speakers, see the thread below, for my take on that.
/forums/multi-way/258030-journey-maybe.html#post3996340
As for the round speakers, see the thread below, for my take on that.
/forums/multi-way/258030-journey-maybe.html#post3996340
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I just have to retract my remark about the 3e-Audio TPA 3255 offering. My noise spikes where coming from a dbx234xl which didn't like an unbalanced input. So that problem transformered away, and the 3e-Audio TPA3255 is cleanly beating the crap out of the Jugs MK II. That's the only drawback of the SMSL m7... unbalanced outputs. A little sprinkle of electronics would normally be the (modern way to go)... But I don't want to stuff/modify the device or hang more on it... So an really nice pair of Jensen 10K:10K input transformers will be the rubber chicken solution RCA 3||E XLR.
Once again:
I look forward to buying more of these 3e-Amps when they are back in stock.
On a side>>> the power difference isn't the selling point compared to the TPA3116...Sure you wish for more until you have it and the speakers can't take it. The selling point is the TPA3255 is cleaner, and tighter. Call it, Dynamic range or whatever you like. But for most people (not using them for reference monitoring) the TPA3116 is just fine (BTL into 4 ohms biamped) with a quality ~19VDC 4-5A supply per side.
The next thing is a MTM version to take more advantage of the extra power by spreading it out. Experimenting with flaring the ports. Maybe a little donut of padding ahead of the cork plug. A fixing the NL4 connector to the Jug.
That's it. Happy listening.
Later
Once again:
I look forward to buying more of these 3e-Amps when they are back in stock.
On a side>>> the power difference isn't the selling point compared to the TPA3116...Sure you wish for more until you have it and the speakers can't take it. The selling point is the TPA3255 is cleaner, and tighter. Call it, Dynamic range or whatever you like. But for most people (not using them for reference monitoring) the TPA3116 is just fine (BTL into 4 ohms biamped) with a quality ~19VDC 4-5A supply per side.
The next thing is a MTM version to take more advantage of the extra power by spreading it out. Experimenting with flaring the ports. Maybe a little donut of padding ahead of the cork plug. A fixing the NL4 connector to the Jug.
That's it. Happy listening.
Later
They will be a fair bit higher and wider. Without measuring anything 30"x14" No idea how to combine them... maybe a folding chair stack thingy. But yeah that's the idea.
On a side the dbx234 should have read dbx234xs (Jensen Transformers JT-11P-1)<>TBA
Another pair of SB Acoustics 6" NAC are sitting at the post office. So MTM is days away.
Yes B&W is a source of inspiration. How could they not be. JBL advanced the driver and B&W refined it and the the cabinet. I love my Matrix 805! I always though if there was a fire, they would be the only thing I would grab.
A triple version (three woofers in a triangle with the tweeter in the middle) would be funky...Any way the jugs are cut so it's just a spot of glue and miles of gaffer tape too next listening test session. Sitting here with the first prototype Poly 5" version. They're still impress. If you can build a passive crossover, you could run these on a single TPA3116 and get away pretty cheap.
Later
On a side the dbx234 should have read dbx234xs (Jensen Transformers JT-11P-1)<>TBA
Another pair of SB Acoustics 6" NAC are sitting at the post office. So MTM is days away.
Yes B&W is a source of inspiration. How could they not be. JBL advanced the driver and B&W refined it and the the cabinet. I love my Matrix 805! I always though if there was a fire, they would be the only thing I would grab.
A triple version (three woofers in a triangle with the tweeter in the middle) would be funky...Any way the jugs are cut so it's just a spot of glue and miles of gaffer tape too next listening test session. Sitting here with the first prototype Poly 5" version. They're still impress. If you can build a passive crossover, you could run these on a single TPA3116 and get away pretty cheap.
Later
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The NAC are still in the mail, but I did cobble together a pair of 6" Poly. The TPA3255 didn't mind the 2 ohm load. I didn't have enough gaffer tape to go vertical so I went wide. Which trades focus for a more live/wider sound stage. Swapped out the SMSL m7 for a TEAC UD-503 all balanced goodness now. The new DAC puts back a shine that was missing. I cranked the DBX234XS high output to flat. The Bass was bigger before the DAC swap. But the low mids gained the most. The sound has a twang, or put another more punchy. Any percussion, bass twang is easier to follow in the mix. Midrange is a little bit more subdued. Haven't figured out how to stack the jugs. Bass extension is pretty small but, giant drum hits are more impressive. Maybe having them close coupled and in separate enclosures has something to do with it. It's a mess of speakers stacked on boxes so I would share a picture. But it's very pleasing to listen to.
Later
Gibson, of Les Paul fame bought TEAC and the promptly went into Chapter 11. It would be a shame if the best affordable DAC faded away because of it. Les Paul becomes Li Ping... I guess we'll see what the Chinese can do with it.
Later
Gibson, of Les Paul fame bought TEAC and the promptly went into Chapter 11. It would be a shame if the best affordable DAC faded away because of it. Les Paul becomes Li Ping... I guess we'll see what the Chinese can do with it.
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Had a couple days to hammer the new TPA3255 (3e-Audio version) and they worked very well. The Phoenix Contacted Trio 48V/10A supplies had no problem. I did trip the protection when the power cord fell out...But that doesn't count.
The setup was too low for a great image (no stands yet). But this pile worked in a completely untreated room without being sharp or ringy. I can see why MTM is so popular. The two bass drivers muddle the point source so you get a large driver sound. Like ~4 times larger. When they get real stands/combined... it will be clear if the image is sharp.
Happy listening
The setup was too low for a great image (no stands yet). But this pile worked in a completely untreated room without being sharp or ringy. I can see why MTM is so popular. The two bass drivers muddle the point source so you get a large driver sound. Like ~4 times larger. When they get real stands/combined... it will be clear if the image is sharp.
Happy listening
Attachments
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It's been awhile so I thought I could update this thread with what I'm up too. The Jugs MK II have become MTTM SB Acoustics Black Aluminum 6" woofers and 26mm tweeters. Driven with 3e-Audio TPA3255 260 amps and Phoenix Contact Trio 48VDC/10A PSUs. I found that running the speakers in parallel dropped the fr impedance spike so they are drive-able to 40Hz. I'm using a LR24 2way 2.1KHz crossover from XKitz.
They are just incredible. Hope you are all well.
Check out the drivers measurements at Hificompass.
They are just incredible. Hope you are all well.
Check out the drivers measurements at Hificompass.
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I used Loudspeaker enclosure calculating with Thiele Small parameter Spice Works to settle on a 50Hz tuned port. The down side is there is a bit of bipolar radiation which has to be managed.
I didn't try a passive radiator. However with an elevated spider exposing the voice coil and gap a sealed enclose would be safer.
I didn't try a passive radiator. However with an elevated spider exposing the voice coil and gap a sealed enclose would be safer.
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Jugs MK II update
Finally got these done. Yup love them. The SB Acoustics BNAC are warm and fuzzy bottoms compared to the Puri. But they are cheaper. Both can make a lot of music. Spice sim showed the Puri could have used another liter of volume. The MTTM euro rail stands convert to cage/frame with four set screws. The MTTM are 4 ohm drivers wired parallel for scary division by zero currents. One trick is the fr Z peak is cut in half.
Finally got these done. Yup love them. The SB Acoustics BNAC are warm and fuzzy bottoms compared to the Puri. But they are cheaper. Both can make a lot of music. Spice sim showed the Puri could have used another liter of volume. The MTTM euro rail stands convert to cage/frame with four set screws. The MTTM are 4 ohm drivers wired parallel for scary division by zero currents. One trick is the fr Z peak is cut in half.
