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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Low ESR Capacitor affected by Attenuator?
Low ESR Capacitor affected by Attenuator?
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:13 AM   #1
Arno Pf is offline Arno Pf  Netherlands
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Default Low ESR Capacitor affected by Attenuator?

In case you would have the best ESR value Capacitor in the crosssover, followed by a resistor attenuator (2 R's) before going to the loudspeaker unit....would this fully take a way the advantage of the good ESR of the capacitor?
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:58 AM   #2
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Assuming all are in series, yes it would. The total impedance would just be R + R + ESR + Xc. Assuming again that R + R is much greater than ESR, that ESR is not going to make any difference except for your wallet ;-)

Jan
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:59 AM   #3
TMM is offline TMM  Australia
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No not necessarily. Assuming that it is a second order filter (inductor and cap) then the inductor and capacitor form a resonant circuit, with the loop closed by the amplifier. This determines the 'Q' of the crossover filter. If you add ESR it will lower the Q of the filter. The parallel load (driver and resistor attenuator) also alter the Q, hence why it is important to sim a crossover and why the inductor/cap values have to be different for different speaker impedances. A sim will help you determine how much ESR is tolerable in your design. In some cases adding ESR intentionally by the use of an actual series resistor may actually be desirable to reach the target curve.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:52 AM   #4
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Agreed. But I assumed that the C was in series with 2 x R as that is what the OP implied, and no circuit was shown. In that case the ESR is irrelevant. But yes, in another circuit it may be of consequence.

BTW Even with an L if the ESR of the C is in the same order of magnitude or smaller than the R of the L wire, probably no issue either.

But let's have the circuit then.

Jan
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:09 PM   #5
Arno Pf is offline Arno Pf  Netherlands
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Sorry for any confusion...

The filter is a third order high pass, 10uF, 1mH, 35uF
And after this a series R and a Rpar across the speaker (TD2001).

The thing is, I use DTAC capacitors and out of curiousity I had some ABX sessions switching the 35uF DTAC with an russian PIO and secondly with a couple of regular MKP in parallel adding up to 35uF.
Switching was done with 2 relais close to the filter while listening to a brief repeated A-B track from a CD.

The Russian comparison was extreme...wife/son blindly could also detect this 100% accurately.
Compared to the regular MKP, the difference was smaller but still noticable.

No difference in SPL curve, Impluse, Group delay, Phase (CLIO)

So it made me think...why? ESR? And if, would it get even better if I did need the attenuating resistors behind this filter? And perhaps move the attenuation before the complete third order HP?
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:13 PM   #6
sumotan is offline sumotan  Indonesia
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Why not set the attenuator to what you require & replace with a resistor. While we’re on the topic may I introduce you to a film resistor that I’ve been playing with, its the most neutral that I’ve tested & this includes Mills Mra 12, Mundorf M resist Supreme & Jantzen. Very even sounding & transparent from top to bottom. Not expensive when compared to Mundorf. Try it sometime guys, don't think you will regret it. Powetron FPR2-T218 oh you must add a heat sink to it.

Cheers
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:23 PM   #7
Arno Pf is offline Arno Pf  Netherlands
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The attenuator already consists of 2 resistors ;-)
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:40 PM   #8
sumotan is offline sumotan  Indonesia
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Oops Im sorry thought that its a variable type. In which case if your after minimum changes to Sq you can try what I suggested. My ML XO is just like yours Caps before resistors.

Btw Arno the type resistor used will do far more harm to the sound if not correctly choosen
so itís really a mooted point to worry about the Esr issue.

Cheers
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:15 PM   #9
Sonce is offline Sonce  Macedonia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno Pf View Post
So it made me think...why? ESR? And if, would it get even better if I did need the attenuating resistors behind this filter? And perhaps move the attenuation before the complete third order HP?
ESR would be a logical and sufficient explanation for some of the sound differences... without opening a can of worms. We can stop there...
Do try other capacitors, but within the MKP territory sound differences tend to be rather small.
Do not move whole L-pad before the HP filter! You can try with moving only the serial resistor before the filter (this will require some L and C values adjustments), but the resistor parallel to driver must stay after the filter.
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:34 PM   #10
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno Pf View Post
No difference in SPL curve, Impluse, Group delay, Phase (CLIO)
If there is no measureable difference it most probably is not the ESR, because that would be measurable.

Jan
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