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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Small, Cheap 2-Way with BR-1 Box
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:18 PM   #11
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
With that tweeter, I would have crossed this one at no more than 1.5kHz myself, especially with that mid.

Interesting design angle on this. I'd be interested in the result if you fiddle until you're happy, then swop out the crossover for a calculated 3rd order.
Hi and Thanks! Actually; on the tweeter; I have the capacitor BEFORE the resistor! So; if you believe the VIFA specs at 4 Ohms; we than have a tweeter attenuated by about 2 or so dB and then we should calculate the X/O based on about 6.2 Ohms. Not trying to be a smart a#s here guys but I DO know acoustics and electronics VERY well. My point is again...FORGET the damn simulations and pure math for a minute or two. USE your ears and HEARING and not the damn math and science! It is ALL about what sounds natural; complex variables will ALWAYS confound us!...Sermon over for now; it's all about the music after all!
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:24 PM   #12
ernperkins is offline ernperkins  United States
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Ok, ok, I get what you are saying. But I find it odd that someone with a technical background wants to ignore the mountain of scientific studies in the audio field on how to design a loudspeaker that sounds as close to live music as possible. A couple of thoughts:

1. You believe "The secret is to maintain the entire spectrum of the instruments and voice as best as possible with one driver". Fine, there's a whole forum here dedicated to full range drivers. But then, why not use a driver designed for that purpose?

2. I have no problem if you want to play around and do your own thing. So why bother posting at all? You asked what people thought and they simply responded.

By the way: I have played several instruments, toured Europe as part of a concert band, regularly attend live jazz/concert/symphony concerts and am a retired EE.

Last edited by ernperkins; 8th February 2018 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Correct typo
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:01 PM   #13
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Originally Posted by ernperkins View Post
Ok, ok, I get what you are saying. But I find it odd that someone with a technical background wants to ignore the mountain of scientific studies in the audio field on how to design a loudspeaker that sounds as close to live music as possible. A couple of thoughts:

1. You believe "The secret is to maintain the entire spectrum of the instruments and voice as best as possible with one driver". Fine, there's a whole forum here dedicated to full range drivers. But then, why not use a driver designed for that purpose?

2. I have no problem if you want to play around and do your own thing. So why bother posting at all? You asked what people thought and they simply responded.

By the way: I have played several instruments, toured Europe as part of a concert band, regularly attend live jazz/concert/symphony concerts and am a retired EE.
Hi, actually we are thinking alike! I have MANY designs; expensive, not and in between. My current "reference" system is; in fact, a full-range with woofer below 100 Hz and a tweeter above 10 KHz. I was trying to find out, within this post, if anyone had tried these "exact" drivers. The goal here was to get a cheap 2-way with a minimum amount of effort that still sounded "good". Well, this does exactly that! I usually listen to small ensemble jazz and Baroque chamber music but I do also listen to full symphony orchestra and even classic rock. What I want to know from the DIY community is what do your experiences tell you with certain drivers and designs. I am NOT asking for people to design anything for me; rather, give me your experiences with different drivers and designs; how do they "sound"??? SO, the point again is what does something sound like as compared to what math or simulations can you run for me. The end result is, of course, is the "end user" happy with the "sound quality"? I worked at Bell Labs; I don't care about the math, science or simulations at my retired age; I care about the end result at "ANY" price range sounding like "music".
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:41 PM   #14
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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It would be COOL if you measured your speaker both on-axis and off-axis.
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:33 AM   #15
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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It would be COOL if you measured your speaker both on-axis and off-axis.
Hi guys. again; NOT trying to be a smart a*s here; just doing my hobby and music "my way". SO, I don't have any calibrated microphone, test equipment or anything other than a few test CD's and my own 2 ears. I DID run some test CD tones and some free, downloadable test tones, sweeps, etc. from my laptop. The nasty looking peak around 4 to 5 KHz showing on the SB 16*** OEM FR SPL plot is NOT anything overly annoying! I could barely detect it; many other drivers OEM plots that "appear" smoother are way far from it!

I think based on the time, energy and effort; these have got to be the best sounding "cheap" speakers I have ever done in over 45 years of playing around! Total time to "fine tune" the current X/O was less than 10 minutes! Of course, Break-in is still going on.

In summary; I have a 0.11 mH inductor on the SB 16*** (no Zobel, etc; just a simple coil in series!). This is a Jantzen 14 AWG copper foil inductor I already had on hand. On the Vifa XT tweeter; I have a 3.3 uF cap. ahead of 2.2 Ohms in series (assuming 4 Ohms on the tweeter; this gives us an attenuation in the ball park of 2 to 3 or so dB with the 3.3 uF capacitor "seeing" about 6.2 Ohms.). Again; the cap is a "Sonicap" Gen. 1; the resistor is a "Zister". (I have a lot of X/O and resistor parts on hand already from previous "experiments".) If I had to guess; this is fairly flat in room from about mid 40's to over 15K (+/- 3 dB). I'm getting the lowest piano tones (ie 27.5 Hz to well beyond my hearing range [above 10 KHz] without any OBVIOUS peaks, dips or harshness what-so-ever!). PM if you want more EXACT details! happy listening, best regards!
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Old 9th February 2018, 12:51 PM   #16
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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Based on my handi-dandi calculator; the tweeter should be -3 dB around 7800 Hz and -6 dB around 4500 Hz (taking into account the 2.2 Ohm series resistor). And, we of course have the attenuation here as well. When I was doing test tones; the SB16*** still had fairly "flat" output out beyond what the OEM FR shows. At 8 KHz the level was way down. When I was still working; I had access to all kinds of laboratory grade test equipment and I did have a calibrated microphone at one time. It would be nice to be able to measure this cheap 2-way accurately but I'm not going to do that. I was hoping some of you guys had already tried these drivers, especially the SB.
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Old 9th February 2018, 04:43 PM   #17
BobtheBuilderMLG is offline BobtheBuilderMLG  United States
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Why not worry about beaming? Break is done after a few minutes I thought and then it becomes more psychological.
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Last edited by BobtheBuilderMLG; 9th February 2018 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:03 PM   #18
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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SB's are starting to break-in nicely now. I have gone back and tried different inductors again - now: 0.22, 0.18, 0.14 and 0.11 mH. The 0.11 mH still sounds better than the higher values but NOW; I am running the SB straight again (NO X/O at all on the mid-bass) while keeping the tweeter circuit as it was for now. While far from perfect; this is a really good sounding project and I will continue to play around with it. I guess the point I'm trying make here is that if the drivers are capable; keep the X/O design at the very BARE minimum! I am using Diana Krall right now as my base-line "reference" since, in my opinion, female singing voice and piano are the hardest to record and reproduce accurately. Again, sorry if I'm coming off as being too strong, not trying to be an a*s but really feel way too many people are caught up in the "correctness" in theory, etc. instead of just "listening" to music while "fine-tuning" CHEERS and REGARDS!
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Old 12th February 2018, 07:19 PM   #19
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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It's been a few days now more of break-in. I have put the 0.11 mH inductor back on the SB after playing around even more with straight wire and other inductors. I tried a few different capacitor values on the tweeter as well. Right now; the tweeter has a 3.3 uF in parallel with 0.47 uf (total about 3.8 uF). 4.3 uF and 5.6 uF put the tweeter too low for what I'm trying to do here. The 0.11 mH seems to be the best overall as there is some ragedness or roughness when running the SB straight (although NOT really bad). Adding the extra 0.47 uF on the tweeter helped balance out the small loss of extra treble from the SB (doing to no longer being straight wired). Again; Diana Krall is my base-line. I have found when her voice and piano are "just right"; almost every recording I own are also "just right". I really don't expect most of you to agree with my methods and that's OK! Again; I prefer to let the drivers do the work to the extent possible with an absolute minimum of X/O parts. OBVIOUSLY, this is a personal taste kind of thing; sort of like art. Whatever floats your boat and frosts your cookies!
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Old 13th February 2018, 03:23 AM   #20
PeteMcK is offline PeteMcK
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"Diana Krall is my base-line" - now try it with some Rammstein.....
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