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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Seas 27TBFC/G vs 27TDFC/G
Seas 27TBFC/G vs 27TDFC/G
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Old 4th February 2018, 06:53 AM   #11
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Originally Posted by andy2 View Post
"Sounding forward and in your face" is usually a matter of speaker voicing. I don't think it's distortion unless the distortion is really bad. I have not used this specific tweeter but I doubt Seas would put out a bad tweeter.
Hmmmmm. voicing. I have a real problem with starting with a crossover on a driver where I can't stand the sound. Voicing to me is in context of other drivers in a speaker system. Since this is a single driver and it failed on a bright recording and others I tried (Spyro Gyra - morning dance).... I don't think voicing it will help.

It was in my face at any volume... whereas the D could be turned up and I could still hear the spectrum.

I've never read about speaker designers listening to each driver and crossover individually for acceptance. Maybe I'm making a mistake. Or maybe I'm just very or over cautious and trying to make the right decisions to make the best of my driver choices.
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Old 4th February 2018, 07:17 AM   #12
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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I didn't get a chance to measure today... maybe on tuesday (national holiday) and I will post up what I find. I'm curious to find why these 2 tweeters are so different to my ears. PS: I asked my partner the same question and she came to the same conclusion. So either our ears are both out of whack, or the B sucks, in my cabinet, crossed at 2KHz 4th order acoustic... with the bright music I like ;-)
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Old 4th February 2018, 10:17 AM   #13
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
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Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
That could well be true and also reflect some of the overly forward / bright mixes of artists I like.

Take for example Huey Lewis and The News - greatest hits album. Most of this is ear shrilling on the 27tbfcg but the 27tddfc tames it just enough to be listenable. I like Huey and couldn't listen on the 27tbfcg. More accurate driver?.... yes. More suitable?.... no.
I.e. could also be your amplification and/or DA - not necessarily the recording. I found that album on Tidal - and yes, it's a bit harsh upwards I would say so your analysis si probably alright.

//
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More distortion to the people!

Last edited by TNT; 4th February 2018 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 4th February 2018, 05:21 PM   #14
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Originally Posted by TNT View Post
I.e. could also be your amplification and/or DA - not necessarily the recording. I found that album on Tidal - and yes, it's a bit harsh upwards I would say so your analysis si probably alright.

//
I will switch out amplifiers to see if it helps. There is no impedance compensation on the tweeter circuit, so maybe the amplifier I am using is having trouble and also may not like the low impedance load. Doesn't explain though with both tweeters with an almost identical impedance curve, one is definitely more listenable than the other. I will also try the other tweeter in the pair just in case one as gone bad (they are 12 years old BTW).
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Old 5th February 2018, 04:02 PM   #15
Jonasz is offline Jonasz  Sweden
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Had the same experience several years ago when I tested it in my system. Compared it to the rs28a. While the Dayton driver had a very listenable smooth sound the TB was just ”annoying”.

My testing was completely unscientific but playing around with the levels didn’t make a difference, rs28a still came out on top.

I really like Seas drivers in general but I don’t get this particular one...
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:04 PM   #16
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
Hmmmmm. voicing. I have a real problem with starting with a crossover on a driver where I can't stand the sound. Voicing to me is in context of other drivers in a speaker system. Since this is a single driver and it failed on a bright recording and others I tried (Spyro Gyra - morning dance).... I don't think voicing it will help.

It was in my face at any volume... whereas the D could be turned up and I could still hear the spectrum.

I've never read about speaker designers listening to each driver and crossover individually for acceptance. Maybe I'm making a mistake. Or maybe I'm just very or over cautious and trying to make the right decisions to make the best of my driver choices.
Usually treble does not cause "in your face". It's what the mid range is doing. It's the integration between the woofer and tweeter so you have to ask what's the woofer is doing.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:14 PM   #17
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Usually treble does not cause "in your face". It's what the mid range is doing. It's the integration between the woofer and tweeter so you have to ask what's the woofer is doing.
Hi Andy,

No woofer was playing. This was simply swapping 2 tweeters over on the same tweeter crossover. No other driver or crossover components involved.

I agree there's something going on in the midrange passband. When a speaker / driver is "misbehaving" I find my ears focus on the frequency band in question and it drowns out the rest. I couldn't hear cymbals and other higher frequency content as clearly on the B as the D (which I should be able to), telling me the B was shouty lower down. The xover targets a 4th order acoustic slope at 2KHz. I do realise the B is 1-2dB more sensitive than the D tweeter. Allowing for this did not change the midrange forwardness / harshness of the B compared to the D. I unfortunately couldn't measure in the weekend due to weather conditions here. I really want to do some distortion measurements between the two tweeters. I also have not tried the other B tweeter in the pair. It could be one is defective. I will measure all drivers and mark the ones I auditioned.

Last edited by Dave Bullet; 7th February 2018 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:20 PM   #18
wushuliu is offline wushuliu  United States
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Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
I'm building a 3-way and have a pair of Seas 27TDFC/G and 27TBFC/G to choose from.

I like to try each driver with its crossover alone, just to see if there is anything that sounds harsh or fatiguing.

The crossover hits a 4th order acoustic slope @ 2KHz. There's no impedance compensation and no other notch or other filters (2nd order plus conventional Lpad).

Knowing the 27TD and 27TB are very similar, I switched between them in the same cabinet.

The 27TDFC/G was pleasant to listen to.

The 27TBFC/G was not. I need to do some measurements to compare them but there was a harshness to the B tweeter. I couldn't listen to it for more than a couple of minutes.

Given the B is well regarded, arguably has lower odd order harmonic distortion, I was disappointed and surprised. Certain vocals or bright rock recordings were just far too in your face. Not so with the D tweeter.

I do know the breakup mode ~ 26Khz of the aluminimum diaphram is seen lower down, could this be the cause of the unpleasantness?
You are not alone in your assessment. The harshness you heard in the TBFC is a common complaint if you Google it. It doesn't have anything to do with the crossover point. Too many people have mentioned their dislike of it to be a crossover issue. Including people with good design skills over at the PE forum and HTguide IIRC. Some people are sensitive to it and some aren't.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:28 PM   #19
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Originally Posted by wushuliu View Post
You are not alone in your assessment. The harshness you heard in the TBFC is a common complaint if you Google it. It doesn't have anything to do with the crossover point. Too many people have mentioned their dislike of it to be a crossover issue. Including people with good design skills over at the PE forum and HTguide IIRC. Some people are sensitive to it and some aren't.
Thanks - interesting. When I bought these (admittedly in 2007!!! yikes) I couldn't find such bad reviews via google.

I find a lot of designers don't post their test listening tracks. I do realise a designer isn't responsible for peoples' listening:
a) tastes. ie. overmixed / bright / edgy 80s music
b) environments

... but of the designs I've seen, many don't post their listening or test music for speakers.

Those that do might just blame bright recordings and that the speaker is just being too revealing. Whatever the case, it's no good to me if I can't enjoy the music I like :-).

Either way - it has been a great learning experience and allowed me to reduce risk of the final speaker sounding like poop.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:50 PM   #20
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Originally Posted by wushuliu View Post
Too many people have mentioned their dislike of it to be a crossover issue. Including people with good design skills over at the PE forum and HTguide IIRC. Some people are sensitive to it and some aren't.
Well "good" is definitely a relative term. "Good" against what? A "good" Toyota does not really say much.
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