Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Mid and high range speakers
Mid and high range speakers
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 7th February 2018, 06:39 AM   #21
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Pretoria
That linked 2-way crossover calculator should be used as a ball-park guesser. It won't design an accurate crossover. This is what I think, anyhow. But it's a nice tool to use to learn a bit about crossovers. The link I posted a little way up got me much more accurate values.

100 Hz crossover is very low. My 6.5" woofers are crossed at 2.3 kHz. It's not easy to design for a speaker if you don't know it's frequency response, but it's safe to use a low resonance tweeter and a low crossover point (so, 600 - 700 Hz tweeter resonance and 1.2 kHz crossover point).

Ported vs sealed isn't just simply plugging up the port and listening to the difference - I think it's generally accepted that sealed boxes are well stuffed, while ported are minimally stuff, more lined with sound deadening. This is important because a stuffed sealed box will appear larger to the driver.

Anyway, I see you're really taking things seriously, which is awesome, and I do wish you the best of luck with this. It's incredibly rewarding. I'm now on my 4th iteration of my speaker build, and I've called it my final. It's as perfect as I could ever want.
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2018, 08:48 AM   #22
gagashagy is offline gagashagy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweet View Post
A 170mm woofer would reasonably be expected to work up to 2Kc/s, so you could make your crossover that high which would generally work in with most tweeters with a low resonance of around 600 - 700 c/s. Use a LR2 crossover at 2Kc/s and pad down the tweeter to match the woofer.

Get some 'free' basic software tools to put yourself in the game of crossover design. The crossover will make or break your efforts in getting a satisfactory result.

Hope this might help somewhat, but beware, loudspeaker design can be habit forming.

C.M
Hi,

This makes everything much more easy. I looked through some online stores I've been browsing and tweeters (specifically) with Fs 600 - 900 are not all that common. So from what I've red, it is somewhat accepted to make Full ranged + Sub setups. In this case, I'd have plenty of headroom on lower end. LR2 - with XO at 2 kHZ gives calming inductor values.
About full-range drivers - could I ask for opinion on - FR with cone vs FR without cone? I've seen some mixed reviews and without any gravity, just the extremes.

Regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2018, 09:40 AM   #23
gagashagy is offline gagashagy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
That linked 2-way crossover calculator should be used as a ball-park guesser. It won't design an accurate crossover. This is what I think, anyhow. But it's a nice tool to use to learn a bit about crossovers. The link I posted a little way up got me much more accurate values.

100 Hz crossover is very low. My 6.5" woofers are crossed at 2.3 kHz. It's not easy to design for a speaker if you don't know it's frequency response, but it's safe to use a low resonance tweeter and a low crossover point (so, 600 - 700 Hz tweeter resonance and 1.2 kHz crossover point).

Ported vs sealed isn't just simply plugging up the port and listening to the difference - I think it's generally accepted that sealed boxes are well stuffed, while ported are minimally stuff, more lined with sound deadening. This is important because a stuffed sealed box will appear larger to the driver.

Anyway, I see you're really taking things seriously, which is awesome, and I do wish you the best of luck with this. It's incredibly rewarding. I'm now on my 4th iteration of my speaker build, and I've called it my final. It's as perfect as I could ever want.
Hello,

I did not find links from you in previous comments. Could you please post what you have in mind? For my previous calculations I indeed used the one from diyaudioandvideo.com. Regarding the low XO frequency - it was purely based on previous setup for the subs I have. I am so glad this seems to not be the case and that they can actually handle much more.
I understand that vented requires larger volume than sealed and it's not just matter of putting the tube in, but with materials I had on hand + the small size factor I would like to achieve, I came to somewhat solution - by moving inner wall which separates the compartments, increase the volume, remove stuffing and adding a vent. But this seems to be failure by design, as
1. I won't be able to increase the volume that much
2. Full-range requires the it's own volume, which pretty much forbids moving of the inner wall

And as you wrote - currently worst case scenario is, I have to dump the plywood and some filter components.
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2018, 10:50 AM   #24
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Pretoria
Sorry, I must have posted the link somewhere else recently.

Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement

Having a look at the TS parameters, a 10 L sealed box should be the best option for the woofer. You'll get response down to about 40 Hz (-10 dB). Ported would need to have an incredibly long port (I didn't see this before).
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #25
gagashagy is offline gagashagy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
Sorry, I must have posted the link somewhere else recently.

Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement
I red the article and I'm missing two things (for the woofer), as far as I can tell.
1) Sensitivity - this could be addressed by just getting loud tweeter and then leveling it down until it fits?

2) Inductance of coil - thus I cannot calculate value for the cap for woofer impedance flattening. The increase of impedance at certain frequency means an audible increase in volume?
If so, then once again, - I have resistor value and I could adjust the capacitors size by test and trial. (But to be honest, I have no clue what value to even start guessing at)
I could order LCR meter but this would mean I would first have to wait about a month for that, and only then order all the rest. And I am inpatient.
Anyhow - I compared my calculations to the suggested components from DIY Audio & Video - everything is off about two times. So now I am confused, if I did not mess something up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2018, 06:11 AM   #26
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Pretoria
1) Yes, but even if you know the sensitivity of the woofer, the tweeter resistor still needs to be tuned to your preference. And resistors are fairly cheap anyway. A 2 ohm, 4.7 ohm, 6.8 ohm and 10 ohm are 4 values you can have and use in various combinations to tune the tweeter level.

2) Yes, and that's why you either leave out the impedance flattening, or use a simple 10 ohm, 18 uF.

To be honest, you're designing half blind. You're going to have to do the things you can't simulate or calculate by intuition or gut feel, or eventually by listening tests. I'm sure many people here can help you out on the intuition thing, based on experience with 6" - 7" woofers.

So, I was looking at those drivers. They look ok, but looking where they come from, one tends to be a little suspect of their quality. It sounds like you want to either build something or buy a good quality set of speakers. I'm definitely going to say that building is far more rewarding. Building your own amplifier is only for fun - you don't really save on cost. It's an expensive hobby. Speakers, on the other hand, are much cheaper to build than to buy, and you can really end up with something great.

Hand on my heart, my speakers I built (for R6000) sound as good as, perhaps better than in some areas, B&W CM10's I auditioned. They're not supposed to, by the sounds of things around here, and the general feeling I get from the community towards Visaton, but honestly, they're amazing.

You want to build bookshelf speakers. Those T17PL07C6 drivers you have might be decent in a sub woofer, and that would be easy to point you in the right direction. I'm going to guess they're 12 ohms each, so in parallel, you'll have a 6 ohm which, from the short bit of research I did, will take a 150 - 200 W amplifier without problems. Now, there are some seriously cool things you can do to get those to give you the really sub-bass, but let's focus on the bookshelf's (as an optional direction you may want to follow).

Look into the kits someone linked near the beginning. Otherwise, the Visaton Aria kit will sound great. If you want something a little cheaper than the Aria, a W130S-based bookshelf would be something to consider, and if you want something a bit more expensive, the Bijou or Bijou 170 would sound fantastic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #27
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Pretoria
Default Bookshelf MTM example

W100S-based MTM bookshelf design.

2x Visaton W 100 S 8 ohm
1x Visaton SC 10 N

Enclosure: 9.6 L, 1.6 cm MDF, 14.2 cm (W) x 38.2 cm (H) x 28.2 cm (D)

Driver placement:
W 100 S (1) @ 30.4 cm
SC 10 N @ 19.1 cm
W 100 S (2) @ 7.8 cm

Rear port @ 19.1 cm, 5 cm PVC pipe, 15.3 cm long (50 Hz)

60 W nominal (100 W max)
Attached Images
File Type: png XO.png (7.4 KB, 126 views)
File Type: png FR.png (20.5 KB, 127 views)
File Type: png PR.png (14.5 KB, 126 views)
File Type: png FR_Dir.png (33.7 KB, 127 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2018, 01:19 PM   #28
DDF is offline DDF  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
DDF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ottawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
Sorry, I must have posted the link somewhere else recently.

Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement

Having a look at the TS parameters, a 10 L sealed box should be the best option for the woofer. You'll get response down to about 40 Hz (-10 dB). Ported would need to have an incredibly long port (I didn't see this before).
You can also try my tutorial over at:
software
"Software and Measurement-less Design Tutorial"

Includes the freeware and an example set of files
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2018, 07:30 AM   #29
gagashagy is offline gagashagy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Hi,

Few months have passed since I finished my first attempt at speaker building. Here's a little update (If anyone gets notified?). I do have to warn you up front - it could be cringy to some.
- While looking for some tweeters online, accidentally I got two JBL car speakers (gto 6537) with adjustable tweeter sensitivity -3db and decided to try my luck. With these, at least I was somewhat confident that the XO is done right for the JBLs.
Calculated coil value needed to cut off the original woofer (the one which I started this build with), destroyed an old transformer and wound the coil.
Next up, I slapped the two drivers in series and coil for the crossover, - configuration could be wrong according to some religions, but I like to experiment - I made the following sequence
1. JBL at possitive,
2. Coil,
3. Woofer off to ground
just to see what comes out. Put it all in a box and tested few familiar songs. First off, I immediately turned down the bass on amp, about -30%. Mids seem to be alright and highs get a bit distorted at higher volumes. Could the arrangement be to blame for some of the issues?
Or arrangement is the least of my issues?
Summary, - for the money I spent (Next to nothing) damn best speakers I've ever owned. In reality - much space for improvements.
I am not really planning to invest any money into these as I have next thing on my mind and resources will be put into that.
Thank you all, who helped and pointed me to right direction.

Regards
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2018, 08:05 AM   #30
wintermute is offline wintermute  Australia
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Mid and high range speakers
Definitely not a good arrangement of the drivers!! You are passing ALL of the power through the tweeter, it is no wonder it sounds distorted at higher volumes.

You should at the very least have a capacitor protecting the tweeter, note I've no experience with series crossovers, but what you have described sounds very wrong

Is the attached (ignore value of coil) like what you are describing? If so then it's no wonder you had to turn the bass down. The tweeter will only be reproducing low frequencies (that it shouldn't be) and attenuated in the range that it should be playing!

Tony.
Attached Images
File Type: png like_this.png (6.3 KB, 67 views)
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos

Last edited by wintermute; 13th June 2018 at 08:16 AM. Reason: add comment and attachment.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Mid and high range speakersHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Speakers full-range with a high resistance. Svjatoslav Full Range 67 1st June 2018 01:15 AM
High quality floor standing speakers,full range plans for diy anyone have a link? nautilusdave Full Range 34 22nd February 2017 08:06 PM
Building a high pass filter / crossover for my small full range speakers Howard Full Range 3 24th October 2013 01:15 PM
How to build simple, cheap, high WAF, full range speakers scigu63 Full Range 15 6th June 2013 02:17 AM
Power supply:Universal AC input/ Full range,High Efficiency, and High reliability hang Vendor's Bazaar 12 24th July 2009 03:46 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:15 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki