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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

NEWBIE: Seeking 2 or 3 way SEALED DIY project!
NEWBIE: Seeking 2 or 3 way SEALED DIY project!
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:27 PM   #21
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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Tony

For the Audio Note AN-E I find:

Dimensions: (Height, Width, Depth) 790 x 360 x 270mm (31" x 14" x 10.5").

That is an internal netto volume of about 50L.
Is that about the maximum enclosure size you have in mind?
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:47 AM   #22
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Here is a 4-ohm 3-way TMWW design which meets your initial goals of sealed, 50-30kHz, >90db sensitivity.

Tweeter: Satori TW29RN-4
Midrange: Satori MR16P-4
Woofers: 2* SB23NRX45-8
==========
This thread has TMW ideas for using a single sealed 4cuft volume for the 12" SB34NRX75-6 which delivers -F3 ~35Hz with SPL ~87-88db including a modest baffle step. You can build a shorter version of Zaph's MTM-W 12.3 cabinet for my TMW.

Zaph|Audio SB12.3, slight redesign
===============

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Vancluysen View Post
Hi Tony,
I am prepared to make a complete speaker design for you on paper. I use Leap for my designs and I have a lot of experience with it. You can choose for a passive or active system. I will do it for free, it is always interesting to see a practical realization of something which is designed on paper. [/url].
Paul
Paul understands that it would be difficult to find a proven kit meeting your stated requirements.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 92db sealed 50Hz-30kHz.jpg (126.2 KB, 179 views)
File Type: jpg sealed 50Hz - 30kHz.JPG (242.7 KB, 173 views)
File Type: jpg 12x3 cabinet.JPG (196.2 KB, 174 views)
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:03 AM   #23
SONDEKNZ is offline SONDEKNZ  New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Vancluysen View Post
Tony

For the Audio Note AN-E I find:

Dimensions: (Height, Width, Depth) 790 x 360 x 270mm (31" x 14" x 10.5").

That is an internal netto volume of about 50L.
Is that about the maximum enclosure size you have in mind?

Paul

Thanks for sticking with me on this.

Ideally, an internal volume of: -
(Height, Width, Depth) 540mm x 270mm x 230mm

This matches a favorite old sealed German speaker that I have been unable to repair.
(Blown tweeters that appear to be like a hen's teeth!)
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:25 AM   #24
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Big Woop . For Big Woof
--A sealed 18 woofer like the $210 Peavey LoRider18 in an 8cuft sealed volume has F3 ~45Hz with 95db sensitivity, AND -F3=32Hz with the port open.
--A sealed 12 woofer like the $175 SB34NRX75-6 in a 4cuft sealed volume has F3 ~35Hz with 87db sensitivity, AND -F3=26Hz with the port open.
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File Type: jpg Big Woop .jpg (153.7 KB, 149 views)
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:43 AM   #25
SONDEKNZ is offline SONDEKNZ  New Zealand
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LineSource

Many thanks for your suggestions too. Appreciated.

I guess with this DIY thing, one really needs to view a speaker that inspires them.

The speakers pictured in the BIG WOOP... FOR BIG WOOF above, just don't appeal to my wife and I.
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:50 AM   #26
SONDEKNZ is offline SONDEKNZ  New Zealand
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MY MOTIVATION:

The MAGNAT ALL-RIBBON 6 Speakers (below) are our all-time favourite speakers at home.

Specs for this late 1980s West German speaker couldn't be more impressive: -
93-96dB Sensitivity
08-ohm Nominal Impedance
28Hz - 34kHz Frequency Range
Sealed Cabinet

But the blown tweeters are like Rocking-horse Dung these days and seem to be impossible to repair this tweeter to original spec - which is VERY extended with no harshness at all.

Being unable to repair or replace these tweeters has been the driving force behind trying a kitset build. We were hoping to build something similar, including some new stands.

I thought it would be much easier to find something similar in performance and appearance.
(I was wrong...)

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File Type: gif MAGNAT ALL-RIBBON 6.gif (134.5 KB, 142 views)
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Old 12th January 2018, 07:26 AM   #27
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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There is plenty of new tweeters that may be used as substitutes, what remains a bit of a problem is how to modify the XO filter, if there is to be done something about it. The all ribbon 6 specs are hmm.. a little exaggerated.
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Old 12th January 2018, 09:31 AM   #28
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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The Magnat All- Ribbon 6 have a sensitivity of 1.2W for 96dB. Suppose the woofer impedance is 8 Ohm, then the sensitivity is about 95dB at 2.83Vrms. To realize 95dB down to 28Hz in full space you need a woofer driver with a 101dB sensitivity at 2.83Vrms, not that easy to find such one. I have some doubts about this sensitivity specification down to 28Hz…

With internal dimensions (Height, Width, Depth) 540mm x 270mm x 230mm, the netto volume is 34L. For a 3-way, a split up of about 28L for a woofer and 6L for a midrange is an option.
Using such volumes, a 2 way with a 8 inch woofer or a 3-way with a 8inch woofer and a 4 to 5 inch midrange is possible.

To reproduce the Magnat sound, I think a 3-way with a small midrange is more recommended.
Also the Yamaha NS-1000 have such enclosure shape. But they are a little larger and have a 12 inch woofer. And they are designed as bookshelf. I like their sound.

Last edited by Paul Vancluysen; 12th January 2018 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:36 PM   #29
SONDEKNZ is offline SONDEKNZ  New Zealand
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Paul

Your knowledge and logic are so very impressive.

I've never heard the YAMAHA NS1000 speakers, buy have heard of them, of course.

The MAGNAT ALL-RIBBON 6 specifications state sensitivity of 1.0W for 96dB.
(See image below...)

I also own a pair of KLIPSCH RP-160M, rated by KLIPSCH as 96dB @ 2.83V / 1m.

I can attest to the MAGNAT ALL-RIBBON 6 and the KLIPSCH RP-160M as having identical in room overall efficiency, having driven them in Tandem - with the KLIPSCH on one channel and the MAGNAT on the other. The imaging was perfectly centered and the volume attenuation identical to my ears.

It is possible that both KLIPSCH and MAGNAT have over-stated these specs, which brings me to another completed home test.

I have also run the KLIPSCH RP-160M and a brand-wew (demo pair) of KLIPSCH HERESY III in tandem - one speaker per channel on the same amp - and again the overall in-room efficiency was identical.
(To our ears, the RP-160M easily delivered a far superior sonic performance in every area BTW...)

Worth noting that the KLIPSCH HERESY III is rated by KLIPSCH as 99dB @ 2.83V / 1m.
(Possibility another over-rating...)

All very interesting.

The upshot of all this is... Good as the rear ported KLIPSCH RP160M is, with its sealed cabinet bass style, the MAGNAT ALL-RIBBON 6 still wins the day to our ears.

Do you think there is there a chance we could find a suitable tweeter to repair our beloved MAGNATS?
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Old 12th January 2018, 01:56 PM   #30
Paul Vancluysen is offline Paul Vancluysen  Belgium
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Tony

Maybe the Magnat sensitivity specification is made as a bookshelf speaker. It means that the sensitivity is specified in a half space environment and not in full space ( =anechoic room). Comparing half and full space sensitivity, for low and low medium frequencies the level in full space is about 6dB lower. Which should mean that for the Magnat the sensitivity is around 90dB for low frequencies in full space. That should be more realistic for this size of speaker and drivers.

Anyway I think you have to choose again for a high sensitivity speaker to replace your Magnat. I have also the experience that high efficiency speakers have that easy playing sound which is so nice to hear. The same experience with big high efficiency horn systems. Maybe give it a try to make a new high efficiency speaker. You can have all my support and I think also of other forum members.

If you like to do that, we first have to find some interesting high efficiency drivers. Suppose you like to create a sensitivity of 90 dB or higher in full space, we have to find a woofer with a sensitivity of 96dB minimum. And a midrange around 93dB and a tweeter of minimum 90dB. We can make the sensitivity as high as the drivers can realize.

Concerning the damaged tweeters of the Magnats. It is like Lojzek is telling also, sure there are other tweeters for replacement. The problem is the implementation, especially the X-over adaptation. If you are able to do some acoustical SPL measurements and electrical impedance and transfer measurements I can give you the support to realize this.

Paul
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