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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Two Way Synergy???
Two Way Synergy???
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Old 22nd February 2018, 01:38 PM   #21
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Over on the monster Unity horn thread, nc535 wrote:

Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn.

"Many successful synergies have been designed in willful breaking of the {~529 = 2*Fs/Qes} rule. The best examples are Art Welter's SynTripp and Chris's MEHing of the Klipsh K-402 with 15" woofers. There is also my own corner horns that use Faital 4FE35's. Of course none of these could be installed in Patrick's car or even a large SUV

If you check the derivation of that rule you find that it applies to exponential horn and says something about the mass roll off corner and the strength of the motor. On a conical horn you have high frequency corners due to the constant directivity and due to the bandpass nature of the mid chambers but mass roll off is not something you need to worry about. Simulate the mids in HR and if HR says they will have the bandwidth you need, then they will. Make sure you accurately model the air trapped under the cone when you do the simulation, though.

If you pick a driver according to 2Fs/Qes rule you will get one that works but it will lack low end and you will end up with a 3-way synergy. Ignore it and you can find drivers that work well and cover the range in 2 ways but you may also need to pay a little more for a CD that can handle a ~1 Khz XO.

Want a 4" driver with a strong motor? Try the B&C 4NDF34!. BL is 9T, more than twice the Faital 4FE35 and it can take more power..."


That got me thinking about two-way Unity horns.

For the most part, I've always made these ultra-small Unity horns for the car, and I've 'handed off' to an array of midbasses. But a two-way would be very attractive if I could actually make it work.
Hi Patric

You as a full grown synergy professor I have some questions about the simulation.

I have some very old phillips AD 8066/W4 speakers, bas units who get to 3.5 Khz and has plus minus 39 hz own resonance.

In Hornresp I get setup the speakers to try to get a two way, as I see the simulation this speakers do not bad, I have to move the port to the edge of the cone of the speaker, I do not now this is alowed because there is less space then in the middle, so maybe mine attempt is faulty.

In pic 1 you see the port is centered in speaker, but need to be moved close to the compression driver, so it get,s to edge cone also having less air space there.

see the pics what I mean, I have made the length of the port as long as the thickness of the wood panel, I have adjust the bass units such it fit next to the compression driver.

I need small horn, it is for the home, I hope to get a high end sounding system, momentum I do design amps, most class d investigation, not yet build but promissing...

thanks.

kees
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Last edited by kees52; 22nd February 2018 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:11 PM   #22
phivates is offline phivates  United States
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Some of us started our diy speaker journey with those Phillips drivers, decades ago. You will need to move the entry ports off center, which is counterintuitive but necessary.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 12:57 PM   #23
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Yes that is what I mean, however less airspace is a result of moving out of center. I think this is a issue for all two way synergys.

thanks for advice..
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Old 23rd June 2019, 10:01 PM   #24
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Someone posted a mint set of SPL RUNTs on eBay this week, with some really nice pics:

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Old 24th June 2019, 11:24 AM   #25
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Someone posted a mint set of SPL RUNTs on eBay this week, with some really nice pics:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

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These are looks quite good, with the use of a compression driver who can do 800 hz crossover a two way is more easy.

With the phillips these do wel, however simulating a comrpession driver is difficult because I have no thiele small parameters of them most of the time.

These looks quite small, perfect for home use, I do not now how low she go, because of use a tapped horn who take over.

regards
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:42 PM   #26
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
It's possible that an improved phase plug might help. I don't know, and I lost interest in trying to make prosound coaxes work. Cheap car audio coaxes actually work pretty good! I think this is because the problem isn't the tweeter or the midrange, the problem is the format of prosound coaxials, where the high frequencies have to travel down a 3" pipe before they can exit the voice coil.
The cheap car audio coaxials will probably be something you could work with here.

I'm imagining something like a 4" cone with a tweeter on a stick in the middle.

Any chance you can make a phase plug for one of those?
I'm thinking horn load the tweeter directly, and have the 4" driver fire into the horn as a ring radiator.


Chris
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:57 AM   #27
tonyman108 is offline tonyman108  United States
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What you propose is more or less what Danley does with the SM60 and SM69. I have a pair of the powered SM60s. MF/HF are provided by a 5” coax, the apex of the horn nestles right into/onto the coax’s CD’s throat.

Not sure how easy it would be to do this scheme with other coax types... an important aspect seems to be the seal between the horn and the CD throat. Not easy to do (get a good seal) and still stay clear of the mid’s cone.

The other constraint is, I believe, the need to minimize the air volume trapped between the mid cone and the back of the synergy horn. Something like the Morel Integra 624 or SB12PFC25 might work, but a lot of auto sound coaxes seem to have the tweeter jutting quite a way past the surface of the mid. In any case the tolerances look like they’ll wind up being pretty tight.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:25 PM   #28
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Two Way Synergy???
I make 2 way synergies all the time.

Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.

A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn

They work well if you use a full range driver or other tweeter like an AMT capable of sub 1kHz crossover to avoid making a CD work too hard.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:47 AM   #29
Ro808 is online now Ro808  Netherlands
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Or just use a bigger compression driver
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