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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Two Way Synergy???
Two Way Synergy???
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:51 AM   #11
nc535 is online now nc535
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the 8" driver has a 15:1 area advantage over the 2" driver and in the specific examples >4:1 excursion advantage.
Maybe you should be looking at a good coax driver. Its polars wouldn't be much worse than any horn you could fit in that limited, squashed down space and yeah , I know, the coax wouldn't fit there either.
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:53 AM   #12
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a comparison of ONE TangBand 4"(1) woofer versus SIX Tymphany TC6s. Really shows the usefulness of xmax. The Tymphany array has more cone area and higher efficiency, but the higher xmax of the TB saves the day. The TB is about four dB louder in the midrange, and by 100Hz it's 7dB louder.

The 8NDL51 will still crush it, but trying to fit an 8" woofer under my dash isn't something I'm looking forward to.

W4-1320SIF - 4" Paper Full Range - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.

It would be nice to run dual 4" midranges, but Parts Express stopped carrying this woofer. I believe there's a neo version but the parameters are different. It's a really nice unit; it reminds me of a Fostex woofer, but with much better build quality. My Fostex FF85WKs died when the surround separated from the basket. Fostex has some really nice speakers, but they're overpriced IMHO. This TB looks like it should sell for $100 each.

BTW, here's what I measured with my Dayton DATS:

* f(s)= 74.69 Hz
* R(e)= 6.836 Ohms
* Z(max)= 39.05 Ohms
* Q(ms)= 2.405
* Q(es)= 0.5103
* Q(ts)= 0.421

Note that my DATS measurements always seem to show a higher QTS than published spec and this woofer isn't broken in
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:07 AM   #13
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nc535 View Post
the 8" driver has a 15:1 area advantage over the 2" driver and in the specific examples >4:1 excursion advantage.
Maybe you should be looking at a good coax driver. Its polars wouldn't be much worse than any horn you could fit in that limited, squashed down space and yeah , I know, the coax wouldn't fit there either.
I've never seen a prosound coaxial that had high frequency response that I could live with. I bought me a pair of the B&C 5" coaxes and I was startled by how lo-fi the treble sounds. The midrange is very nice, and it's a well built driver, but the tweeter sounds like a clock radio. Heck, a clock radio might be a step up. It's not good.

I noticed a similar character to the B&C coaxes used by Seaton Sound. (Sorry Mark!)

It's possible that an improved phase plug might help. I don't know, and I lost interest in trying to make prosound coaxes work. Cheap car audio coaxes actually work pretty good! I think this is because the problem isn't the tweeter or the midrange, the problem is the format of prosound coaxials, where the high frequencies have to travel down a 3" pipe before they can exit the voice coil.

Click the image to open in full size.
This cutaway of the coaxial illustrates the problem a little better. The compression driver has a NEGATIVE expansion, followed by a POSITIVE expansion. Just a complete recipe for high order modes, reflections, diffraction, all kinds of nasty stuff.

Click the image to open in full size.
Vance Dickason's review in voice coil magazine illustrated what my ears were hearing

Click the image to open in full size.
The high frequency response of the Danley molded horns which use the BMS 5" coaxial exhibit similar problems with the tweeter

Click the image to open in full size.
The treble of the Danley flagship is quite a bit smoother. Not perfect, but much better.
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:09 AM   #14
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Jeez, as if I don't have enough projects, it just occurred to me that I could 3D print a phase plug and probably fix the B&C's flaw.

Hmmmm....

I do have a set onhand...
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Old 7th January 2018, 06:50 AM   #15
pcgab is offline pcgab  United States
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Two Way Synergy???
You should definitely do it.
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Old 7th January 2018, 05:21 PM   #16
KJ_Knowles is offline KJ_Knowles  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I've never seen a prosound coaxial that had high frequency response that I could live with.
So it isn't just me! I want to love coaxials, I really do. It is difficult to argue against the intrinsic advantage of the format, but I have not found any that have an overall sonic signature that I would want to live with.

I keep searching for the ideal specimen, but the search continues. The late Ed Long, designer of the UREI Time-Align studio monitors that once ruled the studio world, was very pro-Radian. He used their coax drivers in some of his post-UREI models as well as working with them on design aspects some of their drivers.

I'm intrigued by their new "RibbonCoax" line. The CRS6530 looks particularly interesting. The FR and polars on the datasheet appear solid and show no obvious warts. That doesn't promise great sound, but at least indicates having a decent platform with which to work.

Ribbon Coaxial – Radian Audio

Has anyone has had any hands-on (ears-on?) experience with these, yet? Patrick, I will be following your progress with great interest!
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Old 7th January 2018, 06:54 PM   #17
rave959 is offline rave959  United States
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I'm not sure if this is already in production, but I know it has been mentioned in another thread here:

http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products...p?id=351050010


Cheers,
Ian
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Old 8th January 2018, 01:29 PM   #18
SMathews is offline SMathews  United States
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How about the B&C 8PE21 Fs=87, Qes=0.2 . Mass roll off 870. Expensive.
SMathews

Last edited by SMathews; 8th January 2018 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 8th January 2018, 03:11 PM   #19
nc535 is online now nc535
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the 8PE21 simulates well but so does the Faital 8FE200 for less money
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:13 AM   #20
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMathews View Post
How about the B&C 8PE21 Fs=87, Qes=0.2 . Mass roll off 870. Expensive.
SMathews
I have a pair of 8MDN51s in the garage, might be worth a try. Their parameters are similar to the 8PE21. Got them for a song from Carvin, before they went kaput.
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