Yes, the company can talk about all of the product developments and important breakthroughs to instill delusions of grandeur about the company within the buyers mind.
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Kimmo, i'm only looking at the results. It doesn't matter to me if it is someones first project or not.
But if we put things into perspective, how many man-hours Kef Blade 2 needed for a finished speaker ? How many for JBL M2 ? How long for Kii3 and Dutch&Dutch 8c ? How many for Bang&Olufsen Beolab 90 ?
I am talking about game changers, not a regular designs. That designs doesn't look like few months (let alone few hours as some of guys said) of effort.
Thing is that some diy-ers open a thread and update on progress so it is easier to follow them. So, either some of us underestimate the engineering or some of us overestimate it - how can we know who is right ?
But if we put things into perspective, how many man-hours Kef Blade 2 needed for a finished speaker ? How many for JBL M2 ? How long for Kii3 and Dutch&Dutch 8c ? How many for Bang&Olufsen Beolab 90 ?
I am talking about game changers, not a regular designs. That designs doesn't look like few months (let alone few hours as some of guys said) of effort.
Thing is that some diy-ers open a thread and update on progress so it is easier to follow them. So, either some of us underestimate the engineering or some of us overestimate it - how can we know who is right ?
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Hey Andy,
I have put together what I hope is a fun exercise for you to try your hand at speaker designing. Let me know if you think it's worth doing:
The 20180 Build a Crossover Challenge!
I think it may help you answer questions about how long things take a little more concretely.
Best,
E
I have put together what I hope is a fun exercise for you to try your hand at speaker designing. Let me know if you think it's worth doing:
The 20180 Build a Crossover Challenge!
I think it may help you answer questions about how long things take a little more concretely.
Best,
E
I understand this, but no sense to count projects in this thread if design time has been totally irrelevant. Those projects could also tell us how much time we could waste to simple project by using bad tools and methods or tinkering with the speakers whenever possible without actual/productive reason or learning purposes. That wasting could be main part of the hobby for many diyers.
My hobby has been for some years to provide tools and design methods which help to maximize quality and minimize design time simultaneously. Mechanical changes need much time for sure, but otherwise short design time could also tell about high quality if tools and methods have been efficient.
I'm not sure what photo you are looking at, but I have done that in some of the earlier/cheaper self-wound coils I made. At that time I made the bobbins with wood, and the bolt held them together. I wind most of my inductors now. I don't bolt them as a practice any longer unless the power level is really something inconsequential. I might do that for some tiny desktop speakers for example, where space is at a premium. It's really no different than steel-rod cores in uber-cheap commercial stuff. In the build I posted in question, there are no bolts through coils. In fact, the xovers I built for these have switchable coil types of the same value in both the woofer and tweeter circuits so I could evaluate their individual sonic characteristics.
I did post a thread about the Cecropia Supreme here in its finale, but then P'Bucket killed all of the 3rd party hosting. The thread is here:
Summary of "Cecropia" Build...
Not just one Issue
You are realy talking about project management, which has a number of interrelated steps that need to be completed to deliver a product to market, whether that market be your personal listening space or that of others.
Product design, while only a small part of this process, is extremely important, in that must provide a platform that insures high probability of project success. Your concerns here seem to be focused on implementation of a design rather than the design process, which may be best approached by computer simulation and not take but a day or two.
If on the other hand, you are contemplating an R & D project to explore the possibilities of an unknown concept (or trade secret), then the how long is initially unknown as well, as there will be many design iterations, simulations and measurement sessions in the acoustics lab.
How good a loudspeaker sounds, assuming it has already passed desired measurement thresholds, is almost totally dependent on the acoustics of the space in which it is placed; i.e., success is venue dependent. There of course is the garbage-in, garbage-out issue as well; i.e., a good system will reveal just how badly executed most program source are, so most of the time it's not going to "sound good".
Regards,
WHG
You are realy talking about project management, which has a number of interrelated steps that need to be completed to deliver a product to market, whether that market be your personal listening space or that of others.
Product design, while only a small part of this process, is extremely important, in that must provide a platform that insures high probability of project success. Your concerns here seem to be focused on implementation of a design rather than the design process, which may be best approached by computer simulation and not take but a day or two.
If on the other hand, you are contemplating an R & D project to explore the possibilities of an unknown concept (or trade secret), then the how long is initially unknown as well, as there will be many design iterations, simulations and measurement sessions in the acoustics lab.
How good a loudspeaker sounds, assuming it has already passed desired measurement thresholds, is almost totally dependent on the acoustics of the space in which it is placed; i.e., success is venue dependent. There of course is the garbage-in, garbage-out issue as well; i.e., a good system will reveal just how badly executed most program source are, so most of the time it's not going to "sound good".
Regards,
WHG
My brother from another mother ... LOL
Touching upon the acoustical environment, my experience tell me that the majority are either not doing enough, aka: The room is what it is. Or they do too much, aka: "Bass traps" meaning certain areas (vary) gets absorbed FUBAR.
As I mentioned to a store owner who had a medium sized listening room which absorb 6-12 dB in the 100-250Hz range: Our brain need reflected sound, it is part of a natural psychoacoustic experience and very important for the overall experience since everything in nature create reflected sound and often this is a soft or damped reflection carrying very little information but enough to give us feedback on the overall size, unless you are located inside a concrete room, quarry or other unnatural environments with flat and hard surfaces, one should always leave some reflective surfaces, and our brain is usually very good at telling the difference between a pleasant and unpleasant space. So as you say, a room can enhance or undermine an otherwise excellent loudspeaker.
Lets not forget the space between the loudspeaker, toe-in and tilting, this can do some sick magic to the imaging.
Sure enough, the ideal is a quite room, perhaps even a anechoic chamber with perfect imaging system that more or less generate an envelope of sound - wouldn't that be interesting. But because the system often is not perfect, a too quiet room sounds and is experienced as unnatural. However, I do not claim this as fact, its just my subjective and cumulative experience talking.
Maybe this wasn't for me alone, and my answer probably contains some biases. Those are top of the product line. Traveling to another country may be needed to get listening experience in some hotel room or suite. I've heard Blades, but those are quite much design products. No problem to make better especially if more directivity, resolution and controlled bass is needed at home.
Kii3 is very complex for the purpose. Dutch 8c is more rational. Both doable with proper tools and methods, but experience and knowledge about cardioids in practice and theory is useful. Smug part: no problem for me, but small cardioid is not so interesting and valuable.
Beolab is scifi - proof of expertise, but I suppose sound and adjustments could be okay.
How many of those you have listened, and how many of diy speakers you listed earlier?
Anyway, I think it's unfair to compare diy and big manufacturers because they have totally different resources for design, construction, materials and electronics. Diyer usually makes more straight and simple applications with available (non-OEM) components, which doesn't prove that the sound is worse.
I've nothing against commercial speakers. They are usually adequate for the purpose, and resale value is higher than diy. Diy is just different hobby and that's it.
I think that the most dramatic thing in diy-speakers has been release of simulation programs and measurement systems, added with enormous data and discussions given By the internet. These started in the 90's but exploded at the beginning of this millenium. Latest add is cheap dsp processors.
It is not fair to compare professionals/industry to amateurs/afficianados. Both can do crap or masterpieces, in short or long and winding way. But usually the hobbyist enjoys almost every minute of it, specially when (s)he discovers and solves problems.
It is not fair to compare professionals/industry to amateurs/afficianados. Both can do crap or masterpieces, in short or long and winding way. But usually the hobbyist enjoys almost every minute of it, specially when (s)he discovers and solves problems.
I meant also design time; should e.g. I use as much time for the designing as you or R&D department of JBL or B&O in order to produce speakers which are close to equal in sound quality.
My message is just that design time is not only correlating variable with sound quality, and that applies also to new concepts and complex designs. Might be worth to accept that good sound is possible quite fast, but design methods, tools and own attitude may need some upgrade.
Form follows function, especially in the case of cabinet and driver position. There are a handful sets of rules and the only one breaking does rules which in its own way was a big evolution is the B&W Nautilus released in 1993 and still being produced. The rest with exception of a few, like the BeoLab 90, are playing the same game as everyone ells - I am not saying this is a bad thing. So designing a cabinet, if 95 percent of all parameters are known can be done in a weekend - that is if one has some engineering background and material knowledge. Borrowing solutions from others, who did the main job, severely cuts back on development time. So it is possible to design and build a premium product from the ground up in 3 months or less.
The Beolab 90s I have heard are game changers in respect to effort put into construction and acoustic outcome. They sound horrible. Frequencies above 7k distort like hell, no bass and the mids are "boring". After these were presented to me I wondered if anybody at B&O actually listened to the finished product.
Seats in busses, trains, planes, ...
Watches, guns, cars, bicycles, ...
Leggings? Not sure on this one.
Toilet paper
...
When we listened to them the sales manager proudly announced that the newest software was up and they have been adjusted to the show room.
They did work ok with a (I believe) 1950ies half inch tape as source that we brought in with a Nagra. These speakers are gimmicks designed for something else than music reproduction.
Hi Kimmo,
In my opinion, this is the whole point. If we say that DIY-er can do it faster, one must bare in mind that DIY-ers are people that have day jobs, families, problems and good things are happening to them - in short life is happening to them and making a good/great pair of loudspeakers can take quite long because, while it is a strong passion, it is hardly ever a priority in life. That brings us to the judgement of the poor guy from the first post of this thread that is judged to be incompetent because he made his loudpeakers more than 2 years.
Pros have the advantage that their job enables them to do work only on loudspeaker design at least 8 hours a day and gives them more resources so they can do it faster - depending on if they are trying something new (for them) or not.
I listened only Blade 2 and Kii3. Beolab 90 i can listen probably only abroad. Dutch&Dutch 8c i like the best of all because it achieved the performance of Kii3 without so much resources. JBL M2 is being built by my friend so very soon i'll listen them as well.
As for DIY that i listed, i listened none of those. If i ever go to England, Netherland, Finland, USA or anywhere that i find someone who made something that intrigues me - i'll ask for a couple of hours of their time. I love meeting new people and listening great hifi systems
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