Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Best waveguide under 17.75x6.75" mouth for The Selenium D220Ti
Best waveguide under 17.75x6.75" mouth for The Selenium D220Ti
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #81
Rational35 is offline Rational35  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rational35 View Post
...

I've been trying to buy some EOS-6 and EOS-8 from Erich. He says he still has some cases of them *somewhere* but can't find them just now...
I didn't want to leave this comment dangling on a negative note. Erich located his stock of small EOS waveguides that were listed on the old diysoundgroup.com site, and went beyond the call of duty to make sure I got what I was looking for, for a nice price. A pleasure to deal with, if you understand his busy-ness and have a bit of patience.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2018, 11:00 PM   #82
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Patrick Bateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego
Quote:
Originally Posted by hweb View Post
The venerable QSC waveguide (no longer available) is awesome. This one: B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On appears to be identical. It should unload at around 1050Hz. The PH612 should unload at around 1400Hz, so if you plan on mating this with a 15" woofer you might prefer the larger waveguide.
Nice catch.

I've built speakers with the QSC waveguide, the PRV clone of it, the 18 Sound XT1086 and the Pyle PH612.

Some random observations:

1) this appears to be the PRV clone. It has a different mounting plate than the QSC

2) the BMS and JBL ring radiators work exceptionally well on the PH612. (It was designed for them.)

3) the XT1086 is basically my "go-to" horn. The other two are nice, but the 18 Sound is hard to beat at it's size.

4) if you can live with a big cabinet, go for the QSC clone

All of these waveguides have measurements in "the great waveguide list"
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2018, 01:44 AM   #83
StainlessSteve is offline StainlessSteve  United States
diyAudio Member
 
StainlessSteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
That is definitely the horn I plan to go with. I suppose the design is going to end up like an econowave. I have yet to measure the Thiele small parameters of the 15"s I have. I got the cabinets for free with blown piezo horns, here is what they are: PS-115 Full Range, 2-Way Speaker With 15″ Woofer, 5″x15″ Horn – Nady Systems, Inc.
The stock horn with stock drivers sounds absolutely horrible and they actually posted a FR.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2018, 08:07 PM   #84
hweb is offline hweb
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Patrick Bateman - Have you tried the Peerless DFM2544 with the QSC/PRV/B52 waveguide? I was hoping that with the relatively large Xmax (0.3mm) I could get the combo to go down low enough to meet up with a JBL 2226. I'm not too concerned with the CD's non-linearity as I can EQ with DSP (it will be an active system). I am planning to build a sealed 2.5 foot^3 cabinet placed right up against the wall which should net me an f-6db of 35Hz. Add a little DSP low frequency boost and it should be OK without subs for music.


My plan B is to go to a 12" mid-woof. Perhaps a Dayton PA310, or if win the lottery a TD12H, both of which could reach a little higher (~1kHz)
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2018, 09:24 PM   #85
StainlessSteve is offline StainlessSteve  United States
diyAudio Member
 
StainlessSteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
I bought the Dayton and B52 horn and sent them to Scott Hinson (SpeakerScott) to measure. He measured them and the LTH102 with a B&C DE250. Results: Less of a horn than waveguide, they're way too shallow and expand too rapidly (which would make sense to anyone who understands horns), so they don't have good LF response. I uploaded his REW measurements. I think what I'm going to go with is this because it is much more hornlike, with a less rapid expansion and deep, meaning it has better directivity than just about any other horn for a 1" CD in the same size and it also has a coverage angle I like. I might use this DIYSG CD with it, I don't know yet, but it's a great candidate: Denovo Audio BA-750 Compression Driver FaitalPRO | HF Horns | LTH102

Here are his REW measurements: He also did them hot at 170F, and you can see the affects there, very good data: Tweeter Measurement Saturday.mdat - Google Drive

Last edited by StainlessSteve; 7th October 2018 at 09:46 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 08:09 AM   #86
Rational35 is offline Rational35  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Depends on how you define, or understand "directivity" and what sort of pattern control you are looking for, I guess. I just loaded that mdat file into REW and had a look at the curves.

The LTH102 is a tractrix horn, which by definition will tend to beam more narrowly as frequency increases. This is the antithesis of "constant directivity".

In my world, constant directivity means the frequency response curve maintains (within reason) the same basic curve/slope as you move off-axis. The overall amplitude changes evenly: lower freqs should drop nearly as much as higher freqs as you move off-axis.

The high temperature curves are academic and just throw noise into the mix.
Let's cut through the weeds: I narrowed my focus to 4 curves.

2: B52 2V
17: LTH102 0H

I assume these are on-axis curves measured under identical or similar conditions.

7: B52 40H
21: LTH102 40H

I assume these are 40 degree off-axis curves measured under identical or similar conditions.

Given these assumptions, the B52 is about 3dB hotter than the Faital in the 1kHz to just below 3kHz range, on-axis. Above 3kHz, they are identical, for all practical purposes.

Now, let's look at the 40 degree off-axis graphs:

The FaitalPro is now 5dB hotter than the B52 below about 1.5kHz.
Once you get a bit above 3kHz, the FaitalPro averages 5dB down from the B52, up to 7dB difference at about 12kHz.

To me, this indicates that the B52 has far better (10-12dB) off-axis response consistency compared to on-axis, than the FaitalPro DUT. This defines the goal of constant directivity.

If you want laser-beam highs, and more low-range off axis, go with the LTH102. If you want a consistent balance of lows-highs on and off-axis (within the range of the horn), go with the B52. This is the more constant-directivity option.

I ignored the Dayton H812 for the purposes of this comparison, because its curves have certain elements of both of the two devices discussed, and would only cloud the comparison- astute observers will draw their own conclusions.

Thank you for posting these measurements, they provide fodder for an interesting brain exercise. With a 1" driver, you're not going to use it below 1kHz anyway, are you? Even with the Denovo BA-750, which is, by all accounts I have read, an excellent driver. Any variations in the "low-end 'loading' range" of the horn can be dealt with in crossover network simulation and measurement.

Peter

Edit: regarding the "they're way too shallow and expand too rapidly" observation: Any constant-directivity horn/waveguide will have a flare rate which averages very close to conical. Which means that, for example, a 90 degree horn which is 12 inches wide shall be 6 inches deep. Give or take variances for an OS throat entry, mouth roundover, etc. A longer horn may have other desirable characteristics for certain applications, but constant directivity is not one of them.
Attached Images
File Type: png rew1.png (114.1 KB, 103 views)

Last edited by Rational35; 8th October 2018 at 08:21 AM. Reason: added flare rate comment
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 09:26 PM   #87
StainlessSteve is offline StainlessSteve  United States
diyAudio Member
 
StainlessSteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Thank you for the correction. I already bought two of the Dayton and two of the B52 horns. I will use the B52 horns but I'd love to do a hack-it Unity horn design.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 06:30 AM   #88
Rational35 is offline Rational35  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Steve- I hope my explanation made some kind of sense. It was typed in the wee hours with the aid of a bottle or so of wine, but a sober re-read tells me I didn't stray far.

I've only been a student of the science and sound of horns for 50 years or so, I hope some of the right stuff has stuck in my brain.

Lots of folks really like those Dayton H812 horns. All horns are a compromise of one thing against another, with a usable 3 octave/1 decade range at best.
The Daytons are a clone of a JBL PT waveguide which was made legendary by our dearly departed friend and mentor, Zilch, in his Econowave designs. You may be aware of this, but it bears repeating, and provides fresh search-engine fodder for the uninitiated

I bought 4 of those B52 (QSC clone) horns. Two to play with in a stupid 5-way Hartley/JBL/Eminence system I'm working on: Hartley 18 IB subs, JBL 2204H mid-bass, JBL 2123H mid, JBL 2426J hi-mid, Eminence N151M-8 tweeter. That should be fun when I put it all together.

Quote:
but I'd love to do a hack-it Unity horn design
If you haven't, you should read this thread: Small Syns
Bill Waslo did a small unity/synergy-horn design built on a Denovo SEOS-15 waveguide. I've been thinking the other pair of B52 horns might lend themselves well to that exact approach.

Have fun with this project. I hope my input is helpful in any small way.

Peter
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 06:51 AM   #89
StainlessSteve is offline StainlessSteve  United States
diyAudio Member
 
StainlessSteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Thank you Peter. It has made a lot of sense. I have read that thread, but I don't think I want to use the SEOS because it's more of a waveguide. Doesn't really provide the acoustic impedance benefit of a horn. I downloaded his calculator. What exactly is the other horn you want to use? Just curious.

Last edited by StainlessSteve; 9th October 2018 at 06:55 AM. Reason: typo
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 07:49 AM   #90
Rational35 is offline Rational35  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
For which application?

I'm thinking of trying the B52 for a Waslo-style synergy horn.

I'm planning to use the other pair of B52 with JBL 2426 drivers (that may change- I might swap them for Radian or Celestion or BMS) in the 5-way. But, I own the 2426s, so they'll get a fair trial first.

I bought some Denovo EOS-6 that I was planning to try with the N151s in the main system above 7-10k-ish, and I'll still check them out, but I took a plaster cast of one so I could visualize the flare, and they may be E, but they sure aren't OS

They look more like an Elliptical Exponential horn as I look at the cast mould. So they wont be CD... but does that really matter when I'm only asking them to cover just over an octave? Maybe not. But I'm going to buy a pair of B&C ME10 horns to audition and measure alongside them, and see which I prefer for the vhf tweeter.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Best waveguide under 17.75x6.75" mouth for The Selenium D220TiHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm jazbo8 Swap Meet 1 15th April 2017 06:07 PM
FS QSC waveguide with Selenium D220Ti driver and extra 16 ohm diaphragm dubwoofer Swap Meet 3 6th November 2015 11:05 PM
Selenium D220Ti drivers boudy Swap Meet 1 24th May 2013 02:26 AM
What's wrong with this Selenium D220Ti? keyser Multi-Way 10 1st June 2011 10:56 AM
Dayton 10" waveguide and D220Ti Andrew Eckhardt Multi-Way 7 17th December 2010 01:03 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:19 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki