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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

New crossover for my current speakers
New crossover for my current speakers
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Old 20th January 2018, 07:44 PM   #81
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Niklas,

Here's my recommendation ( for a new network ).

It has input from nearly everyone who ha've posted within this thread.

The calculated power response ( the pink line ) looks pretty good ( to these eyes ).

Niklas, this network mostly keeps your speaker's voicing as is ( which I would label "Youthful & a bit forward" ) because I believe that given your age, that's most appropriate .
- These speakers ( with this network ) really need to be used up against the wall ( where you have them ).

New crossover for my current speakers


"R2" can be adjusted to balance the HF to your own taste ( from being totally absent, to double the value seen here ).

The new coils you need to buy should have their DCR's kept below 0.2R ( 0.15R would be best ).

All the new caps needed ( excluding your existing 6.8uF cap ) can be good quality Bi-Polar electrolytics.

If you want, "C3" could be a blend of a higher quality film cap ( say 3uF ) paralleled to a 22uF BiPolar ( electrolytic ) > assuming you can't hear the resulting resonance which gets produced ( many can't hear it ).

Those with sharp eyes might notice there a two different versions of the LF phase tracking presented. That comes about by adjusting R3 within the woofers notch-circuit.

The acoustic offset used here is .65" ( .0165 M ) > with the woofer behind the tweeter.

This network design has very good immunity to acoustic offset errors ( of even more than double the figure that I used ).


Last edited by EarlK; 20th January 2018 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 21st January 2018, 01:27 PM   #82
Rullknufs is offline Rullknufs  Sweden
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New crossover for my current speakers
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
Niklas,

Here's my recommendation ( for a new network ).

It has input from nearly everyone who ha've posted within this thread.

The calculated power response ( the pink line ) looks pretty good ( to these eyes ).

Niklas, this network mostly keeps your speaker's voicing as is ( which I would label "Youthful & a bit forward" ) because I believe that given your age, that's most appropriate .
- These speakers ( with this network ) really need to be used up against the wall ( where you have them ).

New crossover for my current speakers


"R2" can be adjusted to balance the HF to your own taste ( from being totally absent, to double the value seen here ).

The new coils you need to buy should have their DCR's kept below 0.2R ( 0.15R would be best ).

All the new caps needed ( excluding your existing 6.8uF cap ) can be good quality Bi-Polar electrolytics.

If you want, "C3" could be a blend of a higher quality film cap ( say 3uF ) paralleled to a 22uF BiPolar ( electrolytic ) > assuming you can't hear the resulting resonance which gets produced ( many can't hear it ).

Those with sharp eyes might notice there a two different versions of the LF phase tracking presented. That comes about by adjusting R3 within the woofers notch-circuit.

The acoustic offset used here is .65" ( .0165 M ) > with the woofer behind the tweeter.

This network design has very good immunity to acoustic offset errors ( of even more than double the figure that I used ).

Thank you very much Earl! No need to focus on keeping the voicing "youthful and forward", I want them to sound objectively good

Current distance from back of the speaker to the wall is around 20cm (8 inches), is that close enough or should they be even closer?

I'm looking around at where to buy the filter components. Should I buy good quality stuff from the beginning or should I build a cheap test filter first?

My current 0.27mH coils have 0.16RDC which should be fine. I can get the 0.33mH coil as a Jantzen Audio Cross Coil 14AWG or Mundorf LL60 which are supposed to have an RDC of 0.14ohms.

The 0.75mH coil is trickier. The good quality coils I can find are either 0.68mH or 0.82mH, not 0.75mH. The Jantzen Audio Cross Coil 14AWG is available in a 0.75mH version but I can't find it in a store and it has an RDC of 0.22.

As for caps, would Jantzen Cross Cap, Jantzen Standard Z-Cap, Mundorf M-Cap 400V, or Mundorf M-Cap EVO be fine?
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Old 21st January 2018, 02:22 PM   #83
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Hi Niklas,

You can easily substitute in a 0.82mH coil ( for the .75mH coil ).

For the RDC, keep it between 0.20R & 0.30R ( so as to not lose too much woofer efficiency ).
- Rebalancing the tweeter output will likely be necessary by increasing the value of R2 ( in .5R increments until you're happy with the balance ).

For now I would stick with buying BiPolar electrolytic caps ( excluding what I said earlier about the C3 position ), until you feel things are well balanced ( and you are used to the sound of the newer network ).

The current physical location is fine.


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Old 21st January 2018, 04:01 PM   #84
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Niklas,

The CFC14 ( for the .82mH ) fits the bill for low dcr & high quality ( if you can afford a premium coil ).

Click the image to open in full size. from this listing.

The .33mH coil ( being a smaller value ) won't break the bank if you decide to go for the CFC16 version .

All in all ( in this go round ), I would direct your resources at buying the best coils you can afford ( while leaving the upgrading of caps for a later date ).

( Alternately ), for the .82mH coil, you could track down something like the equivalent to the following:

Click the image to open in full size.Solen .82mH, 14 gauge coil

I see Mundorf has a "Baked" version of this ( which can help keep the windings from audibly vibrating together ). One can also dip their coils in wax ( or varnish ) if this is a personal concern .


For C3 ( in the HF circuit ), combining a 20uF Mundorf eCap with a 5uF cap ( of the same type/model that you currently use ) should satisfy your needs for a long long time.

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Old 21st January 2018, 05:09 PM   #85
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Niklas,

Here's the modified network sporting the .82mH coil ( there are also a couple of changes within the woofer's LCR notch ).

New crossover for my current speakers-morel-cat408-caw638_linesourceefk_h5_3x3_finalp1-png

New crossover for my current speakers-morel-cat408-caw638_linesourceefk_h5_3x3_finalp2-png

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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:46 AM   #86
Rullknufs is offline Rullknufs  Sweden
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New crossover for my current speakers
Thanks, Earl!

I looked into prices and it would only cost me around 200SEK (~25USD, ~30CAD) more to get C2 and C5 (and the 22uF part of C3) as Jantzen Cross Cap instead of cheap electrolytic caps. If I want to upgrade the cheap electrolytic caps the shipping for new caps would be 100SEK so I feel like I could just buy the proper caps from the beginning since the price difference wont really matter. I picked a Mundorf M-CAP Supreme for the 3.3uF part of C3. Also, for C5 I guess using a 4.7uF cap combined with the 0.47uF cap I already have should be fine, even though the 4.7uF cap would be a Jantzen Cross Cap and the 0.47uF one is an M-Cap Supreme. Another good thing about getting the better caps from the beginning is that I get free shipping because total order value comes just above 2000SEK.

This is using the Jantzen Cross Coil AWG14 caps. It seems like the other site only sells to other companies, not home gamers like myself. The 0.33mH coil has 0.14RDC and the 0.82mH coil has 0.23RDC. It seems like that's the best that I can find available here in Sweden.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:30 AM   #87
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Hi Niklas,

Yep, that all sounds like a good plan ( free shipping is always good! ).

Make sure to get yourself a bunch of small value resistors ( since they are inexpensive ) to use in the R2 position.
- R2 needs to be adjusted to your own taste in treble output ( anywhere from none to 3 ohms, I figure is the variable range ) .

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Old 30th January 2018, 02:26 PM   #88
Rullknufs is offline Rullknufs  Sweden
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New crossover for my current speakers
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
Hi Niklas,

Yep, that all sounds like a good plan ( free shipping is always good! ).

Make sure to get yourself a bunch of small value resistors ( since they are inexpensive ) to use in the R2 position.
- R2 needs to be adjusted to your own taste in treble output ( anywhere from none to 3 ohms, I figure is the variable range ) .

Excellent! Actually, I managed to get in touch with Ingvar (the guy who designed these speakers) and he said I could buy crossover parts from him, which probably means I will be able to get better coils and hopefully a cheaper price. He's on holiday this week though so we'll see next week.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:55 PM   #89
Rullknufs is offline Rullknufs  Sweden
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New crossover for my current speakers
It's been a while now, like half a year. Ingvar is very hard to communicate so I guess I should look for other sources of crossover components. I can't find any Swedish site that has coils with low enough resistance so I guess I need to look at other European stores. Is Lautsprechershop.de a good place? They seem to have a good selection of components and since it's in Germany there shouldn't be any crazy expensive shipping or other fees.

Click the image to open in full size.
That's what I found. Using the 22 and 3.3 cap to make C3. A 4.7 and my existing 0.47 cap to make C5. An 8.2 and 3.9 cap to make C2. I guess I should maybe add some more resistors for fine-tuning R2. I've been very tempted to buy a MiniDSP OpenDRC-DI but I guess I should maybe make the new crossovers first.
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Last edited by Rullknufs; 12th July 2018 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:47 PM   #90
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Since you appear to be headed that direction I'd say buy the miniDSP OpenDRC now ( instead of the passive parts ).

Going active along with applying some more room treatments and some EQ will pay larger acoustic dividends ( IME ).

You can always come back to implementing a passive network should you have the interest and excess funds ( and want to move from 2 amps to a single, for whatever reason ).

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