Niklas,
Here's my recommendation ( for a new network ).
It has input from nearly everyone who ha've posted within this thread.
The calculated power response ( the pink line ) looks pretty good ( to these eyes ).
Niklas, this network mostly keeps your speaker's voicing as is ( which I would label "Youthful & a bit forward" ) because I believe that given your age, that's most appropriate .
- These speakers ( with this network ) really need to be used up against the wall ( where you have them ).
"R2" can be adjusted to balance the HF to your own taste ( from being totally absent, to double the value seen here ).
The new coils you need to buy should have their DCR's kept below 0.2R ( 0.15R would be best ).
All the new caps needed ( excluding your existing 6.8uF cap ) can be good quality Bi-Polar electrolytics.
If you want, "C3" could be a blend of a higher quality film cap ( say 3uF ) paralleled to a 22uF BiPolar ( electrolytic ) > assuming you can't hear the resulting resonance which gets produced ( many can't hear it ).
Those with sharp eyes might notice there a two different versions of the LF phase tracking presented. That comes about by adjusting R3 within the woofers notch-circuit.
The acoustic offset used here is .65" ( .0165 M ) > with the woofer behind the tweeter.
This network design has very good immunity to acoustic offset errors ( of even more than double the figure that I used ).
Here's my recommendation ( for a new network ).
It has input from nearly everyone who ha've posted within this thread.
The calculated power response ( the pink line ) looks pretty good ( to these eyes ).
Niklas, this network mostly keeps your speaker's voicing as is ( which I would label "Youthful & a bit forward" ) because I believe that given your age, that's most appropriate .
- These speakers ( with this network ) really need to be used up against the wall ( where you have them ).
"R2" can be adjusted to balance the HF to your own taste ( from being totally absent, to double the value seen here ).
The new coils you need to buy should have their DCR's kept below 0.2R ( 0.15R would be best ).
All the new caps needed ( excluding your existing 6.8uF cap ) can be good quality Bi-Polar electrolytics.
If you want, "C3" could be a blend of a higher quality film cap ( say 3uF ) paralleled to a 22uF BiPolar ( electrolytic ) > assuming you can't hear the resulting resonance which gets produced ( many can't hear it ).
Those with sharp eyes might notice there a two different versions of the LF phase tracking presented. That comes about by adjusting R3 within the woofers notch-circuit.
The acoustic offset used here is .65" ( .0165 M ) > with the woofer behind the tweeter.
This network design has very good immunity to acoustic offset errors ( of even more than double the figure that I used ).
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Niklas,
Here's my recommendation ( for a new network ).
It has input from nearly everyone who ha've posted within this thread.
The calculated power response ( the pink line ) looks pretty good ( to these eyes ).
Niklas, this network mostly keeps your speaker's voicing as is ( which I would label "Youthful & a bit forward" ) because I believe that given your age, that's most appropriate .
- These speakers ( with this network ) really need to be used up against the wall ( where you have them ).
"R2" can be adjusted to balance the HF to your own taste ( from being totally absent, to double the value seen here ).
The new coils you need to buy should have their DCR's kept below 0.2R ( 0.15R would be best ).
All the new caps needed ( excluding your existing 6.8uF cap ) can be good quality Bi-Polar electrolytics.
If you want, "C3" could be a blend of a higher quality film cap ( say 3uF ) paralleled to a 22uF BiPolar ( electrolytic ) > assuming you can't hear the resulting resonance which gets produced ( many can't hear it ).
Those with sharp eyes might notice there a two different versions of the LF phase tracking presented. That comes about by adjusting R3 within the woofers notch-circuit.
The acoustic offset used here is .65" ( .0165 M ) > with the woofer behind the tweeter.
This network design has very good immunity to acoustic offset errors ( of even more than double the figure that I used ).
Thank you very much Earl! No need to focus on keeping the voicing "youthful and forward", I want them to sound objectively good
Current distance from back of the speaker to the wall is around 20cm (8 inches), is that close enough or should they be even closer?
I'm looking around at where to buy the filter components. Should I buy good quality stuff from the beginning or should I build a cheap test filter first?
My current 0.27mH coils have 0.16RDC which should be fine. I can get the 0.33mH coil as a Jantzen Audio Cross Coil 14AWG or Mundorf LL60 which are supposed to have an RDC of 0.14ohms.
The 0.75mH coil is trickier. The good quality coils I can find are either 0.68mH or 0.82mH, not 0.75mH. The Jantzen Audio Cross Coil 14AWG is available in a 0.75mH version but I can't find it in a store and it has an RDC of 0.22.
As for caps, would Jantzen Cross Cap, Jantzen Standard Z-Cap, Mundorf M-Cap 400V, or Mundorf M-Cap EVO be fine?
Hi Niklas,
You can easily substitute in a 0.82mH coil ( for the .75mH coil ).
For the RDC, keep it between 0.20R & 0.30R ( so as to not lose too much woofer efficiency ).
- Rebalancing the tweeter output will likely be necessary by increasing the value of R2 ( in .5R increments until you're happy with the balance ).
For now I would stick with buying BiPolar electrolytic caps ( excluding what I said earlier about the C3 position ), until you feel things are well balanced ( and you are used to the sound of the newer network ).
The current physical location is fine.
You can easily substitute in a 0.82mH coil ( for the .75mH coil ).
For the RDC, keep it between 0.20R & 0.30R ( so as to not lose too much woofer efficiency ).
- Rebalancing the tweeter output will likely be necessary by increasing the value of R2 ( in .5R increments until you're happy with the balance ).
For now I would stick with buying BiPolar electrolytic caps ( excluding what I said earlier about the C3 position ), until you feel things are well balanced ( and you are used to the sound of the newer network ).
The current physical location is fine.
Niklas,
The CFC14 ( for the .82mH ) fits the bill for low dcr & high quality ( if you can afford a premium coil ).
from this listing.
The .33mH coil ( being a smaller value ) won't break the bank if you decide to go for the CFC16 version .
All in all ( in this go round ), I would direct your resources at buying the best coils you can afford ( while leaving the upgrading of caps for a later date ).
( Alternately ), for the .82mH coil, you could track down something like the equivalent to the following:
Solen .82mH, 14 gauge coil
I see Mundorf has a "Baked" version of this ( which can help keep the windings from audibly vibrating together ). One can also dip their coils in wax ( or varnish ) if this is a personal concern .
For C3 ( in the HF circuit ), combining a 20uF Mundorf eCap with a 5uF cap ( of the same type/model that you currently use ) should satisfy your needs for a long long time.
The CFC14 ( for the .82mH ) fits the bill for low dcr & high quality ( if you can afford a premium coil ).
The .33mH coil ( being a smaller value ) won't break the bank if you decide to go for the CFC16 version .
All in all ( in this go round ), I would direct your resources at buying the best coils you can afford ( while leaving the upgrading of caps for a later date ).
( Alternately ), for the .82mH coil, you could track down something like the equivalent to the following:
I see Mundorf has a "Baked" version of this ( which can help keep the windings from audibly vibrating together ). One can also dip their coils in wax ( or varnish ) if this is a personal concern .
For C3 ( in the HF circuit ), combining a 20uF Mundorf eCap with a 5uF cap ( of the same type/model that you currently use ) should satisfy your needs for a long long time.
Thanks, Earl!
I looked into prices and it would only cost me around 200SEK (~25USD, ~30CAD) more to get C2 and C5 (and the 22uF part of C3) as Jantzen Cross Cap instead of cheap electrolytic caps. If I want to upgrade the cheap electrolytic caps the shipping for new caps would be 100SEK so I feel like I could just buy the proper caps from the beginning since the price difference wont really matter. I picked a Mundorf M-CAP Supreme for the 3.3uF part of C3. Also, for C5 I guess using a 4.7uF cap combined with the 0.47uF cap I already have should be fine, even though the 4.7uF cap would be a Jantzen Cross Cap and the 0.47uF one is an M-Cap Supreme. Another good thing about getting the better caps from the beginning is that I get free shipping because total order value comes just above 2000SEK.
This is using the Jantzen Cross Coil AWG14 caps. It seems like the other site only sells to other companies, not home gamers like myself. The 0.33mH coil has 0.14RDC and the 0.82mH coil has 0.23RDC. It seems like that's the best that I can find available here in Sweden.
I looked into prices and it would only cost me around 200SEK (~25USD, ~30CAD) more to get C2 and C5 (and the 22uF part of C3) as Jantzen Cross Cap instead of cheap electrolytic caps. If I want to upgrade the cheap electrolytic caps the shipping for new caps would be 100SEK so I feel like I could just buy the proper caps from the beginning since the price difference wont really matter. I picked a Mundorf M-CAP Supreme for the 3.3uF part of C3. Also, for C5 I guess using a 4.7uF cap combined with the 0.47uF cap I already have should be fine, even though the 4.7uF cap would be a Jantzen Cross Cap and the 0.47uF one is an M-Cap Supreme. Another good thing about getting the better caps from the beginning is that I get free shipping because total order value comes just above 2000SEK.
This is using the Jantzen Cross Coil AWG14 caps. It seems like the other site only sells to other companies, not home gamers like myself. The 0.33mH coil has 0.14RDC and the 0.82mH coil has 0.23RDC. It seems like that's the best that I can find available here in Sweden.
Hi Niklas,
Yep, that all sounds like a good plan ( free shipping is always good! ).
Make sure to get yourself a bunch of small value resistors ( since they are inexpensive ) to use in the R2 position.
- R2 needs to be adjusted to your own taste in treble output ( anywhere from none to 3 ohms, I figure is the variable range ) .
Yep, that all sounds like a good plan ( free shipping is always good! ).
Make sure to get yourself a bunch of small value resistors ( since they are inexpensive ) to use in the R2 position.
- R2 needs to be adjusted to your own taste in treble output ( anywhere from none to 3 ohms, I figure is the variable range ) .
Hi Niklas,
Yep, that all sounds like a good plan ( free shipping is always good! ).
Make sure to get yourself a bunch of small value resistors ( since they are inexpensive ) to use in the R2 position.
- R2 needs to be adjusted to your own taste in treble output ( anywhere from none to 3 ohms, I figure is the variable range ) .
Excellent! Actually, I managed to get in touch with Ingvar (the guy who designed these speakers) and he said I could buy crossover parts from him, which probably means I will be able to get better coils and hopefully a cheaper price. He's on holiday this week though so we'll see next week.
It's been a while now, like half a year. Ingvar is very hard to communicate so I guess I should look for other sources of crossover components. I can't find any Swedish site that has coils with low enough resistance so I guess I need to look at other European stores. Is Lautsprechershop.de a good place? They seem to have a good selection of components and since it's in Germany there shouldn't be any crazy expensive shipping or other fees.
That's what I found. Using the 22 and 3.3 cap to make C3. A 4.7 and my existing 0.47 cap to make C5. An 8.2 and 3.9 cap to make C2. I guess I should maybe add some more resistors for fine-tuning R2. I've been very tempted to buy a MiniDSP OpenDRC-DI but I guess I should maybe make the new crossovers first.
That's what I found. Using the 22 and 3.3 cap to make C3. A 4.7 and my existing 0.47 cap to make C5. An 8.2 and 3.9 cap to make C2. I guess I should maybe add some more resistors for fine-tuning R2. I've been very tempted to buy a MiniDSP OpenDRC-DI but I guess I should maybe make the new crossovers first.
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Since you appear to be headed that direction I'd say buy the miniDSP OpenDRC now ( instead of the passive parts ).
Going active along with applying some more room treatments and some EQ will pay larger acoustic dividends ( IME ).
You can always come back to implementing a passive network should you have the interest and excess funds ( and want to move from 2 amps to a single, for whatever reason ).
Going active along with applying some more room treatments and some EQ will pay larger acoustic dividends ( IME ).
You can always come back to implementing a passive network should you have the interest and excess funds ( and want to move from 2 amps to a single, for whatever reason ).
I have been thinking about maybe going active but it feels like a lot of work. The opendrc-di does not work for active speaker setups. For that I would have to go to a much more expensive dsp option or go with an analog minidsp and that's not something I want to do (I want to do as few analog/digital conversions as possible. I have a really competent two channel amp now that I got as a real bargain a couple of months ago (S.A.T Amplifix, basically the same as Primare/Bladelius). Having a passive crossover would make things a lot easier and less complicated. Money isn't really an issue, I have a well paid job and live pretty frugal but I just want to be sure that I spend my money well.
Here's how I would spend your money on crossover parts.
Some of the parts are much better ( IMHO ) while others ( like the BiPolar electrolytics ) aren't .
The Bipolars are mostly cascaded ( bypassed ) with MKP types ( & where it matters a Mundorf Supreme in the HF circuit ).
On balance, I feel this will give you better performance.
PS: you'll need to do your homework on whether or not this is a good company to deal with.
on crossover parts.Some of the parts are much better ( IMHO ) while others ( like the BiPolar electrolytics ) aren't .
The Bipolars are mostly cascaded ( bypassed ) with MKP types ( & where it matters a Mundorf Supreme in the HF circuit ).
On balance, I feel this will give you better performance.
PS: you'll need to do your homework on whether or not this is a good company to deal with.
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Hi Niklas,
I've made a couple of changes ( nothing major that impact the above parts list ).
I tweaked the design to make C2 smaller ( note: C2 is now in the HiPass circuit ).
The notch filter ( comprising R3 + C5 ) is no longer needed ( but might be in the future if you ever fix your 5K diffraction suckout ) .
I've also included the XSim file for this version ( in case you or anyone else wants to play with it ).
PS: I could tighten up the phase tracking > but then I'd have to consider not using your existing LC components.
I've made a couple of changes ( nothing major that impact the above parts list ).
I tweaked the design to make C2 smaller ( note: C2 is now in the HiPass circuit ).
The notch filter ( comprising R3 + C5 ) is no longer needed ( but might be in the future if you ever fix your 5K diffraction suckout ) .
I've also included the XSim file for this version ( in case you or anyone else wants to play with it ).
PS: I could tighten up the phase tracking > but then I'd have to consider not using your existing LC components.
Attachments
Please help keep your forum clean. Do not quote the entire post just above yours. (see the Rules). Over quoting has been removed. Thank you.Buy the 4 parts needed for ( R3 + C5 ) x2 . They are only 5.56 euro total. You might need them later.
C2 can be changed back to the 24.7uF value by paralleling a 10uF biPolar cap ( already in the shopping list ) to the existing 14.7uF film caps ( which is a 2 cap combo consisting of a 10uF MKP film + 4.7uF Supreme film paralleled together ).
- Then you can tell me if you hear a difference! ( for a 15uF or 25uF cap in that position ).
Okay So, is there anything else that I would need? I have solder, soldering iron, and cables. I will make a thin wooden board to mount the components on. Is glue best for mounting the components? If I remember correctly my current crossover has the components glued to a plywood board. It wont be pretty getting them off the board.
So, is there anything else that I would need? I have solder, soldering iron, and cables. I will make a thin wooden board to mount the components on. Is glue best for mounting the components? If I remember correctly my current crossover has the components glued to a plywood board. It wont be pretty getting them off the board.- Status
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