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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Audibility of speaker nonlinear distortion - test
Audibility of speaker nonlinear distortion - test
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:54 PM   #21
mimi123 is offline mimi123  Spain
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Join Date: Oct 2010
The hardest to me was the 1khz, and the easiest the 10+12khz.
Code:
foo_abx 2.0.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.16
2017-11-13 23:37:45

File A: 1000Hz_gen.wav
SHA1: b303226639a6f0633023c06bccc5dcc3711f2742
File B: 1000Hz_rec.wav
SHA1: 774114f7416ddbdc290faece1c8b02d9ec2f676c

Output:
WASAPI (event) : Headphone (VIA HD Audio), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

23:37:45 : Test started.
23:38:22 : 01/01
23:38:32 : 02/02
23:38:40 : 03/03
23:38:49 : 04/04
23:39:01 : 05/05
23:39:13 : 06/06
23:39:39 : 07/07
23:39:48 : 08/08
23:39:56 : 09/09
23:40:07 : 10/10
23:40:26 : 11/11
23:40:35 : 12/12
23:40:35 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 12/12
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

 -- signature -- 
59ef2a10457073939030f79ab9000dcdd5395f7a
Code:
foo_abx 2.0.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.16
2017-11-13 23:44:47

File A: 2kHz gen.wav
SHA1: 83cdde7dd2d9e166fa7f92a0a8b69526ce83357f
File B: 2kHz rec.wav
SHA1: 63db87c63b3d51d113d6de5279dfd179b1858643

Output:
WASAPI (event) : Headphone (VIA HD Audio), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

23:44:47 : Test started.
23:45:19 : 01/01
23:45:34 : 02/02
23:45:39 : 03/03
23:45:49 : 04/04
23:45:53 : 05/05
23:45:58 : 06/06
23:46:02 : 07/07
23:46:06 : 08/08
23:46:10 : 09/09
23:46:13 : 10/10
23:46:17 : 11/11
23:46:21 : 12/12
23:46:21 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 12/12
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

 -- signature -- 
782be79c93083a040623da0114db20dffca4d6d8
Code:
foo_abx 2.0.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.16
2017-11-13 23:42:19

File A: 10+12khz_gen.wav
SHA1: 821894330fe457aa2c82286c7f323c34d0dab4ac
File B: 10+12khz_rec.wav
SHA1: 271b9efc65be91ca113cfc1248032534c9f88463

Output:
WASAPI (event) : Headphone (VIA HD Audio), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

23:42:19 : Test started.
23:42:53 : 01/01
23:42:59 : 02/02
23:43:03 : 03/03
23:43:07 : 04/04
23:43:12 : 05/05
23:43:16 : 06/06
23:43:25 : 07/07
23:43:29 : 08/08
23:43:33 : 09/09
23:43:37 : 10/10
23:43:41 : 11/11
23:43:45 : 12/12
23:43:45 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 12/12
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

 -- signature -- 
d0d5ff625726dc6427338c2a5e4fc32c0e676f3e

Last edited by mimi123; 13th November 2017 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:01 AM   #22
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
Well, this should settle the matter. Scott and Geddes and any others who dont seem to believe one can hear much of anything in the way of distortion. I would guess they have not spent much time critically listening.

I will not be back to my home music system for another month. Would love to take test now. Wondering also how an excellent headphone use would change any results or make it even more sensitive.


THx -- Richard Marsh

Last edited by RNMarsh; 14th November 2017 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:08 AM   #23
rdf is offline rdf  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Wondering also how an excellent headphone use would change any results or make it even more sensitive.
Many highly regarded headphones have distortion comparable to or significantly in excess of these test signals:

Speakerphone Etymotic Research ER4XR Measurements
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Ears aren't microphones.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:52 AM   #24
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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Join Date: Jan 2016
I am curious to hear your thoughts on this...
Ive been developing a ribbon for the last 6 months. Out of 3 diaphragm designs 1 has stood out and while everything looks like a go I am torn on its release. The "problem" is making the desision between the "high" distortion version and the "low" distortion version. The reasion there is a dificult decision is two fold. 1- the higher distortion version has a nice 90 db sensativity vs an 86 db sensativity on the lower distortion version. 2- Neather I nor anyone else so far can tell the difference between the two listening to music.
some details...
This ribbon is designd to be used as low as 1khz. In the lower distortion version, 2nd through 5th HD are all down around .3%-.5% @90 db 1 meter. In the higher distortion version 2nd,4th,and 5th are all below .5% but 3rd starts climbing at around 3khz reaching 4% by 1khz.
I was quite suprised when I started listening tests. I thought for sure I would easily hear a difference. I simply do not.
While my "test" is simple and im sure we could, in theory anyway, tear it down from a technical standpoint, it seems an interesting example of two basically identical transducers measuring quite different distortion levels yet sounding identical.

Last edited by lowmass; 14th November 2017 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:12 AM   #25
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimi123 View Post
The hardest to me was the 1khz, and the easiest the 10+12khz.
Great result!
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:24 AM   #26
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowmass View Post
The reason there is a difficult decision is two fold. 1- the higher distortion version has a nice 90 db sensitivity vs an 86 db sensitivity on the lower distortion version. 2- Neither I nor anyone else so far can tell the difference between the two listening to music.
Maybe ask yourself who, or what market, you are planning to sell them to? Will it be people who care about specifications? Will it be mastering engineers with very keen ears? (if so, you might want to see if some of the better ones can hear any difference.) Or, will you be selling it to a market that cares more about sensitivity and maybe maximum achievable SPL? If you are sure it won't make any difference no matter who the target market consists of, then why is the decision so hard?
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:15 AM   #27
mimi123 is offline mimi123  Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
Great result!
Thanks.

When you know the distortion profile for some speaker, have you thought about creating digitally the test tones instead of recording and processing them?
Or do you think we lost something this manner?
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:41 AM   #28
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
I found both the 1 and 2 kHz files are 100% distinguishable using just a volume level of '2'
Thanks Karl, I tried the 2kHz test again with DacMagic Plus and even lower volume level than before and got 10/12 and 11/12.

Code:
foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2017-11-14 11:32:48

File A: 2kHz gen.wav
SHA1: 83cdde7dd2d9e166fa7f92a0a8b69526ce83357f
File B: 2kHz rec.wav
SHA1: 63db87c63b3d51d113d6de5279dfd179b1858643

Output:
WASAPI (event) : Speakers (Cambridge Audio USB Audio 1.0), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

11:32:48 : Test started.
11:33:52 : 01/01
11:34:15 : 02/02
11:34:35 : 03/03
11:34:50 : 04/04
11:35:08 : 05/05
11:35:15 : 06/06
11:35:39 : 06/07
11:35:47 : 07/08
11:35:54 : 08/09
11:36:07 : 09/10
11:36:23 : 10/11
11:36:32 : 11/12
11:36:32 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 11/12
Probability that you were guessing: 0.3%

 -- signature -- 
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So not perfect yet, but much better than before in this test .
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #29
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimi123 View Post

When you know the distortion profile for some speaker, have you thought about creating digitally the test tones instead of recording and processing them?
Or do you think we lost something this manner?
Yes. In fact in the past years I have posted several test threads with mathematically added distortion here at diyaudio, but the files had some mistakes that were detectable by abx switching and those mistakes were not originated in distortion. I have learned quite a lot from these mistakes and maybe I might be able to prepare a test with mathematically added distortion, similar as the one measured, into a music sample.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:00 AM   #30
mimi123 is offline mimi123  Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
into a music sample.
That's a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
Thanks Karl, I tried the 2kHz test again with DacMagic Plus and even lower volume level than before and got 10/12 and 11/12.
Intrigued about this. For me it was difficult the 1khz but not the 2khz.
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