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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Best Mid and Tweeter upgrades for resolution of detail?
Best Mid and Tweeter upgrades for resolution of detail?
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:39 PM   #11
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwparts View Post
Fair enough! Perhaps a Zaph ZA14? Any preference on good metal mids?

I will also try raising the bottom crossover point, you're right that may help at higher listening levels.
I cannot recomend a specific metal mid. My sugestion there has to do with past experiences comparing well damped flexyer cones (such as you now have) with riggid metal cones. To my ears that section where the small flexy cones start to "lose it" around 1-1.5khz and upto tweeter hand off is a trouble spot that a more riggid cone can do better. I suspect just about any well made metal cone would do well.

The woofer-mid crossover is another area that I have noticed in past experaments to be an issue with both dynamics and clarity. Two things that can suck the life out of a system. Many past experaments had me taking the woofer somewhere between 300-500 to get the life back. 200 hz was just trouble for me and im not sure what was really the problem but its been consistant in a number of sytems.

You have easy access to any crossover you want. Much can be learned by just experamenting with different points and slopes. I would play around there before gutting her.
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Old 6th November 2017, 10:54 PM   #12
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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ZA14, Seas L15, Seas W15, Seas L16. Everyone of these shouldn't be crossed over 2KHz.

Tweeter SB26ADC or Seas 27TBFC/G can handle lowish crossover point and measures fairly well.
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:20 PM   #13
nerdorama is offline nerdorama  United States
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What are you using for your active crossover. I've found that some units that rely on mediocre opamps have just the sound you describe. Your problem may be electronics rather than speakers.
John
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:40 PM   #14
bbutterfield is offline bbutterfield  United States
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If you want to know if the speaker lacks clarity, or if it's getting lost in room reflections, then try this free experiment:

Set up a small listening triangle, maybe 4 feet on a side in the middle of your largest room. This will increase the ratio of the direct sound to the reflected sound. If you find you have all the clarity you need in such a set-up, then you can't really fault the speaker beyond its dispersion characteristics. I suspect the driver's you're using are capable of all the clarity you need. Did you hear another set-up that you thought had more?
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:51 PM   #15
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Best Mid and Tweeter upgrades for resolution of detail?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdorama View Post
What are you using for your active crossover. I've found that some units that rely on mediocre opamps have just the sound you describe. Your problem may be electronics rather than speakers.
+1

Besides the XO what are the other bits of kit? It is a system and everything makes a difference.

dave
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:18 AM   #16
bmwparts is offline bmwparts  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweet View Post
If you want more detail and openness ...take the midrange and tweeter out of the box and mount them on a sub-baffle of the same width above the main box. Seal off the main box for the Vifa M26WR to work as the woofer, then invert the box to bring the woofer,midrange and tweeter closer. You now have an 'open baffle' that is a revelation over anything in a box. Give it a shot, it will cost you nothing to try it for yourself.

C.M
I like this idea, I may have to try it! Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksquires View Post
Hi BMW:

I have to agree with some of the inputs here. Those are some nice parts unless driven too hard. Room treatment, as well as felt on the baffle around the tweeter can help, as can better capacitors.

One thing though, when you say "pedestrian".... I'm not sure how your speaker is tuned, but a lot of "high end" designs deliberately use a rather ragged frequency response to accentuate narrow bands, along with an overall bright presentation. This gives the illusion that the speaker is more "revealing" when i fact it's just a hearing-aid.

For the midrange, perhaps try a Peerless 830xxx or FaitalPRO 5FE120. Both get routinely good reviews here.

Best,

E
Thank you, a lot of good information here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill poster View Post
If you wanted to push the boat out, maybe an Accuton C158 paired with Satori Be tweet.
Hah, that would be a nice selection wouldn't it?!
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:27 AM   #17
bmwparts is offline bmwparts  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowmass View Post
I cannot recomend a specific metal mid. My sugestion there has to do with past experiences comparing well damped flexyer cones (such as you now have) with riggid metal cones. To my ears that section where the small flexy cones start to "lose it" around 1-1.5khz and upto tweeter hand off is a trouble spot that a more riggid cone can do better. I suspect just about any well made metal cone would do well.

The woofer-mid crossover is another area that I have noticed in past experaments to be an issue with both dynamics and clarity. Two things that can suck the life out of a system. Many past experaments had me taking the woofer somewhere between 300-500 to get the life back. 200 hz was just trouble for me and im not sure what was really the problem but its been consistant in a number of sytems.

You have easy access to any crossover you want. Much can be learned by just experamenting with different points and slopes. I would play around there before gutting her.
All very useful and I will give these ideas a shot. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvu View Post
ZA14, Seas L15, Seas W15, Seas L16. Everyone of these shouldn't be crossed over 2KHz.

Tweeter SB26ADC or Seas 27TBFC/G can handle lowish crossover point and measures fairly well.
Thank you for the suggestions, these all look great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdorama View Post
What are you using for your active crossover. I've found that some units that rely on mediocre opamps have just the sound you describe. Your problem may be electronics rather than speakers.
John
I'll describe a quote down

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbutterfield View Post
If you want to know if the speaker lacks clarity, or if it's getting lost in room reflections, then try this free experiment:

Set up a small listening triangle, maybe 4 feet on a side in the middle of your largest room. This will increase the ratio of the direct sound to the reflected sound. If you find you have all the clarity you need in such a set-up, then you can't really fault the speaker beyond its dispersion characteristics. I suspect the driver's you're using are capable of all the clarity you need. Did you hear another set-up that you thought had more?
I did, I heard a pair Totem Wind's that I was very impressed with, especially treble. I will give your method a shot, it sounds interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
+1

Besides the XO what are the other bits of kit? It is a system and everything makes a difference.

dave
System consists of a NanoDIGI 2x8, 4x CS4398/CS8416 DACs using LME49720 buffered outputs, Highs get a TK2050 amp, mids and lows each get a channel from two Rotel RB-870BX.

I've tried hard to be near capless and discrete in my signal path. Every amp has a single MKP input cap but that's it. I've found success in not even running a protection cap on my tweeter, so the path to each driver is very pure.
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:14 PM   #18
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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I like the suggestions about getting the speakers out into room as far away from walls as possible and listen in small triangle.
This to start. The room and positioning of everything can have a larger effect than we want to admit.
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Old 7th November 2017, 01:32 PM   #19
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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How do you handle baffle step correction? Do you have any measurements of the on-axis frequency response? I would strongly suggest trying to understand what the issues are with the current implementation before spending money on some of the things being suggested.
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Old 7th November 2017, 06:05 PM   #20
bmwparts is offline bmwparts  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy19191 View Post
How do you handle baffle step correction? Do you have any measurements of the on-axis frequency response? I would strongly suggest trying to understand what the issues are with the current implementation before spending money on some of the things being suggested.
Well, here's the post where my answer will probably get me **** on and nobody will take my concerns seriously anymore, but here goes nothing:

All measurements were done with an online tone generator and using a Dayton iMM-6 mic on my LG G5. Not exactly the most legitimate measurement setup.

For baffle step correction, I'm using parametric EQ functions in the DSP.

Perhaps I'm overstating my problem, I do think they sound wonderful, but when I hear a $699 Sonos soundbar with more treble detail, I get a little antsy to get better drivers.
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