I am curious to try a F.A.S.T set up and before even thinking of speaker types and details I need to understand some basics first.
I am concerned about matching output speeds from different types of designed. I prefer the sound of sealed subs, can the full range be a horn/ TQWT or would it not be a good match?
Is it advisable that the FR speaker design needs to cut off at same frequency as the crossover cut off point e.g. Port tuning/ TQWT length or does this not matter?
Any other advice to get a coherent design to work would be welcome.
I am concerned about matching output speeds from different types of designed. I prefer the sound of sealed subs, can the full range be a horn/ TQWT or would it not be a good match?
Is it advisable that the FR speaker design needs to cut off at same frequency as the crossover cut off point e.g. Port tuning/ TQWT length or does this not matter?
Any other advice to get a coherent design to work would be welcome.
There is no such thing as "speed" in speakers. There is poor integration of bass and mid frequencies.
If you like a sealed sub, fine. Use a sealed full-range. Pick a sub that can cross at 300Hz give or take. Ideally no higher to preserve the linear phase characteristics of the full-range. Pick a full-range as small as you can that will cross at 300Hz.
Of course reality dictates moving the cross-over to match the choice of drivers. My personal speakers use the Audax HM210C0 and the Scan Speak 10F-8424G0 crossed at 500Hz with a Harsh phase linear XO.
Bob
If you like a sealed sub, fine. Use a sealed full-range. Pick a sub that can cross at 300Hz give or take. Ideally no higher to preserve the linear phase characteristics of the full-range. Pick a full-range as small as you can that will cross at 300Hz.
Of course reality dictates moving the cross-over to match the choice of drivers. My personal speakers use the Audax HM210C0 and the Scan Speak 10F-8424G0 crossed at 500Hz with a Harsh phase linear XO.
Bob
Usually a WAW (Woofer assisted wideband… there is finely a move to lose the FAST moniker) has an XO high enuff that one does not need to attempt to extend the LF and sealed or aperiodic midTLs (or OB) are commonly used.
Like any XO the cutoffs need to create a smooth hand-over. That is specific to the exact implementation.
I am rushing away at the moment, i can post a lot more on the subject including examples we have built.
dave
Like any XO the cutoffs need to create a smooth hand-over. That is specific to the exact implementation.
I am rushing away at the moment, i can post a lot more on the subject including examples we have built.
dave
Vs a ported or TL, much more power would be required to extend low response. It all has to come from the front wave.
How the driver response scales vs power becomes an issue possibly. Assuming two woofers rather than a single sub....
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Subwoofers are rarely an appropriate chose. They are all to often "atmosphere generators” and don’t reach high enuff with enuff finese.
dave
Some pictures:
Alpair 12pWeN/Alpair 7.3eN MTM, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
SDX7eN/A7.3eN, woofers sealed, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
SilverFlute W14eN (push-push)/FF85wKeN, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
Peerless 830870 (push-push)/FF85wKeN, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in uFonkenSET (reflex pushed towards aperiodic).
dave
Alpair 12pWeN/Alpair 7.3eN MTM, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
SDX7eN/A7.3eN, woofers sealed, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
SilverFlute W14eN (push-push)/FF85wKeN, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in aperiodic midTL.
Peerless 830870 (push-push)/FF85wKeN, woofers in ML-TL, midTweeter in uFonkenSET (reflex pushed towards aperiodic).
dave
Thanks for all the great advice here. Really getting interested now.
300Hz for crossover, a lot higher than expecting.
From a quick browse of small FRs obtainable in UK I found a few options.
FR58EX - 2" Full Range - Fountek - 8ohm: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics
Dayton Audio ND90-4 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range: Amazon.co.uk: Hi-Fi & Speakers
SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 Full-Range
SPX-32M
The Audax/ Scan Speak combo are out of my price range for now.
These look like fun. Will explore these idea some more.
What would be a ideal size for a sealed woofer cabinet?
planet10, Your wide baffle speakers look great. Interesting to see this combo. I never thought of using 2 woofers per channel.
As XO is higher than I expected, is there still need for a sub plate amps or can I just use 2 Power amps?
300Hz for crossover, a lot higher than expecting.
From a quick browse of small FRs obtainable in UK I found a few options.
FR58EX - 2" Full Range - Fountek - 8ohm: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics
Dayton Audio ND90-4 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range: Amazon.co.uk: Hi-Fi & Speakers
SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 Full-Range
SPX-32M
The Audax/ Scan Speak combo are out of my price range for now.
These look like fun. Will explore these idea some more.
What would be a ideal size for a sealed woofer cabinet?
planet10, Your wide baffle speakers look great. Interesting to see this combo. I never thought of using 2 woofers per channel.
As XO is higher than I expected, is there still need for a sub plate amps or can I just use 2 Power amps?
Typical WAW XO is 150-400 Hz. In the speakers i posted pictures of, for the MTM we use 240/250 Hz (1st order PLLXO/4th order (built into HT receiver)), ~800 Hz passive, the wide SDX7 system, 160 Hz(1st order PLLXO), W14 (Tysen V2, 240 Hz PPLXO, 450 passive), uFonken 240 Hz ((1st order PLLXO).
Not familiar with any of those, but have extensive experience with FR88ex (it is OK), and the Dayton is an Aura OEM, i have had the NS3 which is decent and probably the most bass capable 3”.
Probably also out of your budget but outstanding (all priced/pr):
http://www.kjfaudio.com/product/alpair-6m-2/?v=3e8d115eb4b3
http://www.kjfaudio.com/product/alpair-6p-2/?v=3e8d115eb4b3
http://www.kjfaudio.com/product/alpair-5/?v=3e8d115eb4b3
We’ll be trying the A5.2 in the next Tysen V2 prototype and have neglected the slightly larger A6x.
2 7” drivers move air similar to a 10” but typically have greater HF extension. The SDX7 reaches just over 1.7k, the SF something like 5k, and the A12pw and the 4” Peerless about 10k. It is really quite amazing to hear the bass that can be had out of a pair of the Peerless. We also have a prototype with 4 Peerless, but we have run into construction/box resonance issues, and the box design is far to hard to execute more than once.
Plate amps usually do not have an XO high enuff for a proper WAW, they are more useful when adding a (sub)woofer below a FR with fairly extended LF capabilities (60-100 Hz)
dave
THanks for info and suggestions Dave. As I would not have to buy expensive plate amps the speaker budget will be higher for speakers.
This one is closer to budget for the FRs
http://www.kjfaudio.com/product/chs-70/?v=79cba1185463
It would depend on the driver parameters and required response. Personally I'm not into resonant boxes
Agreed. Subwoofer definition is vague. Subwoofer - Wikipedia
However, WAW may not be enough for some people and they may still want a sub, whereas I would suggest SAW has it covered
The CHS is a Pluvia 7 without the dimple on the dustup. AFAIK it was an early production run and i suspect that being out of stock they may not get any more but replace the slot with the Pluvia 7s. This driver is voiced such that it sounds much like the Alpair 7.3 but does not have the same level of DDR (ability to reproduce small detail) but is likely more robust.
We got 2 pair of these when Mark was soliciting opinions on the new basket — we like the basket a lot. Chris is using it in a milliSize enclosure for one of his sets of surround speakers (height ones i believe).
dave
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Well true that WAWs (aka FASTs) usually find their home in the fullrange forum, this is the multiway forum
Technically a fullrange would have 10 octave capability, none do (althou some modern ones legitimitely do 9 octaves) so a better term than Full Range is Wide Range. So if we are working to lose 1 acronym considered to be weak, why not 2?
dave
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