Hi,
Can anyone have any ideea what make are these speaker cabinets ?
It was told to me that they came from USA but the filter capacitors are W. Germany made, also the mid and tweeter resemble some vintage German made as well. The front grill is aluminum and an interesting thing is that they used aluminum foil for the woofer coil in those filters. They are 3 way sealed/ compression loudspeakers so I guess finding a woofer for them is kind of difficult since almost all woofers now are made for bass reflex loudspeakers. The woofer seemed to be a 10". Unfortunately they came without the woofers.
Some help would be greately appreciated ! Please excuse my english
Can anyone have any ideea what make are these speaker cabinets ?
It was told to me that they came from USA but the filter capacitors are W. Germany made, also the mid and tweeter resemble some vintage German made as well. The front grill is aluminum and an interesting thing is that they used aluminum foil for the woofer coil in those filters. They are 3 way sealed/ compression loudspeakers so I guess finding a woofer for them is kind of difficult since almost all woofers now are made for bass reflex loudspeakers. The woofer seemed to be a 10". Unfortunately they came without the woofers.
Some help would be greately appreciated ! Please excuse my english
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It shouldn't be difficult to find a woofer that works, closed boxes are easy to work with. Find the volume of the box and use 3 specs for the woofer - Qts, Vas and fs.. to find the 2 box resonance properties - Qtc and fc.. and you'll begin to see a pattern. Then you can compare their sensitivity. Also consider how low in frequency the midrange plays when you choose the type of woofer.
Thanks Allen! will do some calculations. At a first glance without considering all that you've mentioned I've found this drivers with qite high Qes but at least they could fit perfectly
WS 25 E - 8 Ohm
WS 25 E - 8 Ohm
Most people seem to want to end up with a Q of between 0.6 and 1.2, with many being around 0.7 The box is going to raise the Q of the woofer, so you could start with something possibly as low as 0.3 but maybe as high as 0.7
A high Q woofer could be made to sound good, but I'm not sure it isn't more a question of bass quantity for the cost.
What do you have there.. 40-50 litres? Probably not a bad choice with the Vas of this woofer but the Q will be quite high due to the small magnet.
A high Q woofer could be made to sound good, but I'm not sure it isn't more a question of bass quantity for the cost.
What do you have there.. 40-50 litres? Probably not a bad choice with the Vas of this woofer but the Q will be quite high due to the small magnet.
You have got a pair of WEGA lb 3521 speakers of indeed German origin. They were made in about 1971/72. All drivers came from German speaker manufacturer Heco. The woofer most probably was a TC244 (4 ohms) or TC248 (8 ohms). Unfortunately, publication of TSP's wasn't common in those days, but I've found a tiny little bit: http://wegavision.pytalhost.com/Heco/1972-Bausatz/04.jpg which covers the tweeters and the squawkers as well.
I've got a pair of lb 3520's, lb 3521's (both 3-ways) and lb 3522's (4-way) each. Especially the latter (and biggest) one sounds amazingly, while the lb 3520's sadly sound as flat as they look.
Edit: Here are some more infos about your speakers: http://wega.pytalhost.com/1971/seite33.jpg. So you can see the xover frequencies.
Best regards!
I've got a pair of lb 3520's, lb 3521's (both 3-ways) and lb 3522's (4-way) each. Especially the latter (and biggest) one sounds amazingly, while the lb 3520's sadly sound as flat as they look.
Edit: Here are some more infos about your speakers: http://wega.pytalhost.com/1971/seite33.jpg. So you can see the xover frequencies.
Best regards!
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The box is 29 liters and made some sims with bass box with this WS 25 E. It drops on a 50Hz - F3 with heavy dumping. Is this aceptable results, let's say on paper ? DO you you have in mind any other comercial woofer that I can run a sym on ? Thanks !
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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After having had a very close look at your pictures I got severe suspicion that your LP filter choke is missing in the Xover network. So I opened one of my lb 3521B's and found this choke underneath the PCB. I hope you'll find yours' also there?
Then I remembered that I've got the user's manuals in combination with the speakers when I acquired them in February 2016. So here are some more infos for you.
Btw, I have to stand corrected now: The woofer was called PCH 245 instead of TC 244. It's voice coil measures a DC resistance of 3.2 ohms, so it supposedly is a 4 ohms driver.
Best regards!
Then I remembered that I've got the user's manuals in combination with the speakers when I acquired them in February 2016. So here are some more infos for you.
Btw, I have to stand corrected now: The woofer was called PCH 245 instead of TC 244. It's voice coil measures a DC resistance of 3.2 ohms, so it supposedly is a 4 ohms driver.
Best regards!
Attachments
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Hi Kay, thank you for opening the 3521 for me ! it seems that there is a slight difference from mine, your being a newer version? Talking about new (almost 50 years your's have the B after. Maybe are more refined and thinked on after making the first 3521 series.
btw the LP filter choke is there.
From what I see my mid's are PCH37 but thetweeter is PCH24/5 (yours HCL26/5) also the tw capacitor 6,8uF insted of 8,2 uF (yours). Unfortunately, for the moment I cannot measure the inductances. Other interesting thing is that in my filters they put some axial polarised caps instead of non-polarised but from what I see your filter where slightly "after market" modified with some non pols for the woofer section? Also mine has a more rudimentary point by point blank circuit board that I guess it was more cheap and fast to produce? I guess I can swap them for some good Polypropilene non polarised ones ?
So, my question remains, where could I find some suitable woofer substitutes for my pair of 3521? Will this woofer WS 25 E 4 OHM work in my speakers?
your's have the B after. Maybe are more refined and thinked on after making the first 3521 series. btw the LP filter choke is there.
From what I see my mid's are PCH37 but thetweeter is PCH24/5 (yours HCL26/5) also the tw capacitor 6,8uF insted of 8,2 uF (yours). Unfortunately, for the moment I cannot measure the inductances. Other interesting thing is that in my filters they put some axial polarised caps instead of non-polarised but from what I see your filter where slightly "after market" modified with some non pols for the woofer section? Also mine has a more rudimentary point by point blank circuit board that I guess it was more cheap and fast to produce? I guess I can swap them for some good Polypropilene non polarised ones ?
So, my question remains, where could I find some suitable woofer substitutes for my pair of 3521? Will this woofer WS 25 E 4 OHM work in my speakers?
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oder diese : 1x Heco 1016610 Tieftoner - Bass aus Interior Lautsprecher #AA | eBay ? like new HECO ones
I've replaced those non-polarized 25µF electrolytics by myself, using a combination of 15µF + 4µ7 + 4µ7 foil capacitors each, 'cause I don't like any 'lytics in xover networks. I've done the same in the xovers in my lb 3522C speakers previously, with good sonic results.
Yes, mine are the lb 3521B version, probably somewhat newer than yours'.
I don't know if this epay speaker will fit, let alone that there's only one offered. You may want to find a 4 ohms 10" driver with a fres next to 20 Hz - a rather difficult task, I'm afraid.
Best regards!
Yes, mine are the lb 3521B version, probably somewhat newer than yours'.
I don't know if this epay speaker will fit, let alone that there's only one offered. You may want to find a 4 ohms 10" driver with a fres next to 20 Hz - a rather difficult task, I'm afraid.
Best regards!
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It appears that original woofer unit was an 8 ohm since the XO frequency is cca. 700 Hz and the LP filter from the schematic is consistent with this conclusion.
Kay, I found the SBX2530 in my country at quite a good price: SAL SBX 2530/BK Difuzor de medii-joase, 250mm, 8Ohm, kevlar
I guess it is about the same thing but in black kevlar. But then again 4 or 8 ohms ?
It seems that the original PCH 245 was indeed 8 ohm or they made it in 4 and 8 ohm versions ? : Heco Pch 245 >> Seite: 1 >> Beendete Produkte >>
Thanks for the guiding Lojzek.
At the end of the day I do not plan to make them as original as they where in 1971 an maybe a fresh new woofer would be a good surprise. I do not indend to change the filter config. dough, maybe changing those electorlitic caps.
will try to run a simulation with the sbx... hmm
I guess it is about the same thing but in black kevlar. But then again 4 or 8 ohms
? It seems that the original PCH 245 was indeed 8 ohm or they made it in 4 and 8 ohm versions ? : Heco Pch 245 >> Seite: 1 >> Beendete Produkte >>
Thanks for the guiding Lojzek.
At the end of the day I do not plan to make them as original as they where in 1971
an maybe a fresh new woofer would be a good surprise. I do not indend to change the filter config. dough, maybe changing those electorlitic caps. will try to run a simulation with the sbx... hmm
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As said before, the PCH 245 in my lb 3521B measured RDC = 3.2 ohms. So supposedly it's impedance is 4 ohms. WEGA, the manufacturer of the speakers, names their impedance at 4 to 8 ohms, though, and allows two pairs of speakers to be connected to their receivers and consoles, rated at 4 ohms minimum.
Best regards!
Best regards!
Hello Muzy_kant,
None of the woofers suggested come close to the original German woofers from the early seventies: extremely compliant/low fs, classic acoustic suspension woofers, typically with fs around 25-26 hz for a 20 cm woofer and around 22-23 Hz for a 25 cm woofer. Sort of Geman variety on the AR theme, but then with Dr. Kurt Müller rubber surrounds and occasionally (e.g. Braun) cast frames.
If you can trace one or two of the Hungarian Videoton/Hangszoro HA1038 25 cm woofers you come very close spec. wise.
Good Luck,
Eelco
None of the woofers suggested come close to the original German woofers from the early seventies: extremely compliant/low fs, classic acoustic suspension woofers, typically with fs around 25-26 hz for a 20 cm woofer and around 22-23 Hz for a 25 cm woofer. Sort of Geman variety on the AR theme, but then with Dr. Kurt Müller rubber surrounds and occasionally (e.g. Braun) cast frames.
If you can trace one or two of the Hungarian Videoton/Hangszoro HA1038 25 cm woofers you come very close spec. wise.
Good Luck,
Eelco
Hi Eelco, never heard of HA1038 ,Videoton dough I'm from the area..
22Hz fs is extremely low ... found some new speakers that can do that but they are way over the budget for this restoration
What about some Heco's from the Superior 600 speakers ?
Tieftoner HECO SUPERIOR 600 | eBay
Found a couple in my country at a resonable price and condition.
Anyone know some Thiele Small for those woofers ?
Thank you !
22Hz fs is extremely low ... found some new speakers that can do that but they are way over the budget for this restoration
What about some Heco's from the Superior 600 speakers ?
Tieftoner HECO SUPERIOR 600 | eBay
Found a couple in my country at a resonable price and condition.
Anyone know some Thiele Small for those woofers ?
Thank you !
Eelco, if you mean this woofer: Hangszoro VT HA25/1038(451) 8R110W | Elektronika
that is pretty cheap, do you think it will do the job ?
found also this:
VIDEOTON 25 cm-es MELYSUGARZO PAR nagymagneses - Vatera.hu
VIDEOTON HA25/10KS 4Ω - Vatera.hu
HA25-450 Melykozephangszoro - Hangszoroshop - Minden ami hangszoro
VT - HA25-503
Regards
that is pretty cheap, do you think it will do the job ?
found also this:
VIDEOTON 25 cm-es MELYSUGARZO PAR nagymagneses - Vatera.hu
VIDEOTON HA25/10KS 4Ω - Vatera.hu
HA25-450 Melykozephangszoro - Hangszoroshop - Minden ami hangszoro
VT - HA25-503
Regards
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Looks like it, but seems to have a much smaller magnet than the 12 cm dia magnet assembly mine have. Bought them in Hungary some 15 years ago for a few Forint. Replaced the foam surrounds with rubber surrounds.
In case you want rear mount simply make a 4 or 6 mm MDF ring between surround and frame as a sort of hard gasket.
Eelco
In case you want rear mount simply make a 4 or 6 mm MDF ring between surround and frame as a sort of hard gasket.
Eelco
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