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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Visaton tweeters - comparisons?
Visaton tweeters - comparisons?
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:03 AM   #11
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Thanks, giralfino! I did a lot of boxsim simulations before building: Visaton 2 way tower or Monitor Audio Bronze 5

The SC10N doesn't sound harsh, it just struggles to play different frequencies at the same time. From the very little listening I have done, the titanium tweeter from Visaton seems to sound harsh. My pair of Celestions have titanium domes, and they sound fantastic.

The crossover appears to be OK. Phase and FR appear to be excellent in simulation. The speakers sound incredible and are definitely in another league compared to the Celestion F20's I have - the bass is much better; more extended and much better defined, the mids and highs are also stronger and more balanced. It's just that the SC10N doesn't seem to cope as well as I'd want. In other words, if I improve the tweeter, the overall sound will be that much better.

Have a look at post #112 in the thread I linked to listen. They sound great. I just feel the tweeters could do better.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:06 AM   #12
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Mark, attach the boxsim file please. I have a buddy of mine with Experience V20 kit built as per Visaton and he said that it sounds just about as good as needed to listen to the news from FM receiver, not really involving and everything looks perfectly good in boxsim. That's why I said that the sim may be off.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:23 AM   #13
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lojzek View Post
Mark, attach the boxsim file please. I have a buddy of mine with Experience V20 kit built as per Visaton and he said that it sounds just about as good as needed to listen to the news from FM receiver, not really involving and everything looks perfectly good in boxsim. That's why I said that the sim may be off.
I think the Experience V20 is the wrong thing for anyone to build. There is MUCH better to be had for that money. In fact, given those drivers in there, I'd tell your friend to use the W200S and G25FFL in a smaller 2-way, and then to find a better home for those W130S. Or simply to build a subwoofer out of the two W200S and make small bookshelfs with what's left over. But new crossovers will definitely be required for better quality.

The boxsim file I have attached is how I'm going to rebuild. I think it will just be better that way - more flexible. The difference is simply driver placement. If you listen to the vids I posted in #112 of the thread I linked previously, you'll hear the sound is good. I must stress that I just feel the tweeters could be better.
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File Type: txt W170S_SC10N.txt (38.4 KB, 14 views)
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:44 AM   #14
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
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From the other thread I saw the boxsim simulation, and noticed the use of a W170 6.5" driver. Are you sure the problem is on the tweeter and not on the woofer part? Did you listened to the filtered tweeter only? BTW there is a reason why Visaton uses the W170 in only two kits, in one as a woofer in 3-way and the other in a FAST.
Anyway maybe the crossover point is simply a little too low for a cheap tweeter with a high point of resonance.
I don't know about your country, but here I do find Visaton driver expensive for what they offer on spec. On their catalog the only tweeter that I'd mate with a 6.5" mid-bass (preferably at 2KHz or lower) is the KE25SC, but it is really expensive. IMHO there are better options, see for example the 27 series from Seas (27TDFC or 27TBFC/G).

Ralf
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:00 AM   #15
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Thanks Ralf. The W170S price vs performance is really excellent. I don't have much else available to me, except Ebay, but shipping is expensive. Of the WxxxS series, the 170 seems to be the most balanced.

KE25SC is what I'd buy, but it's far too expensive, hence the question. The Vifa NE19VTA looks great. Those Seas 27 also look good!

And great advice on checking each driver - I'll do just that, thanks!
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #16
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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That woofer filter is unnecessary complicated. Have a try with this one that I modified from the build with W170S-4 unit. You can reuse the two 0,82mH inductors in series for a quick test.
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File Type: zip Visaton W170S SC10N MK2.zip (24.4 KB, 21 views)
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #17
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Thanks, Lojzek. I'm no crossover expert, and a simple one would probably work perfectly. The one I have was more experimenting, and the purpose of the extra complexity was to tame the impedance and to correct the baffle influence. If I have the time one day, I will definitely give the simpler version a try. I do like fewer things between amplifier and driver for sure! And the response is nice, especially the phase difference near crossover. When I change the baffle, I'll change the crossover, and a new crossover will be a complete new build.

Still, I don't think it will change the tweeter. So I'll look around for some nice Vifas.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:30 PM   #18
mondogenerator is offline mondogenerator  England
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Hi.

I have used one or two Visaton drivers and currently run the G20sc tweeter with the AL130 woofer.

I simmed in Box sim and all is as expected. I have no doubts in the quality of their free software. In simulation the only other tweeter I can use is the KE25 which sums very similarly to the G20sc.

But I agree....their selection of affordable tweeter offerings is sparse. My choice is the G20sc or KE25. The former is the cheaper. And I am satisfied with the sound.

What you realky need to be careful of is the high ish Fs of their tweeters in general. -20dB at XO may just about be ok. From recall I did a little better at -20-25dB and I hear no issues at the lower end of their ranges.

Anecdotal subjective opinion I accept, but nothing would've made me choose another Visaton tweeter in that price bracket. And certainly not the sc10. I've used similar style tweeter from.other brands and always been disappointed.

Just my 2 pence
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:26 PM   #19
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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mondogenerator, I value your 2p. Here, that's like 40c.

What you say does make sense. I've been crawling to find something. Doing that, I found some nice looking tweeters. I decided to piece together some replacement stuff to see what it would cost. I paid a hefty price for my W170S. The joys of living far from the productive world.

Next chance I get, I'll ship in the following:
2x Peerless by Tymphany BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
6x Dayton Audio DMPC-8.2 8.2uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
2x Dayton Audio LW18-15 0.15mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor
2x Dayton Audio LW181-5 1.5mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor

All of that will cost R100 more than I paid for 1x W170S (and a mere R50 more than one single G20SC, if bought here). But now I may have a chance to get the stuff from PartsExpress on local shipping. I will browse more tweeters for lower Fs, but 1400 Hz should be ok.

So that's pretty much decided, unless someone has a better idea of a tweeter from there.

Here's the real temptation: To ship in
2x Aurum Cantus AC-165 6-1/2"

The sad thing is that they each only cost about R300 more than each W170S (at the price I paid). My only problem is the size might be a bit much - my brother's girlfriend probably won't be able to cram two of those AC-165's into her luggage, and I'll probably have to really beg her to bring back the other stuff already.
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:57 PM   #20
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Maybe I'll get NE19VTS-04 3/4" Silk Dome Tweeter
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