Hi everyone,
I'm curious what you think happened. To me the Infinity/Genesis 4 or 6 woofer tall bass towers were among the hottest and most intriguing, brute force approach to bass for a residential pair of speakers.
Still, this idea never really caught on. What happened in the end? Too inconvenient? Never performed as expected?
Best,
E
I'm curious what you think happened. To me the Infinity/Genesis 4 or 6 woofer tall bass towers were among the hottest and most intriguing, brute force approach to bass for a residential pair of speakers.
Still, this idea never really caught on. What happened in the end? Too inconvenient? Never performed as expected?
Best,
E
A lot of change has happened since those came out, most significant being an overall general decline in high end audio for the masses. Back in the 70s almost everyone I knew was into audio to some extent.
The biggest drawback I find with them is the amount of space you need to make them really perform.
I am still running a set of IRS Betas myself, and enjoy them now as much as when I first heard them.
Unfortunately I do not have a big enough room to really do them justice, but even so they still sound amazing. The servo box allows for a fair amount of bass adjustment.
The PS Audio Music Room 1 build with the IRS MK Vs is an interesting series of videos to watch.
The biggest drawback I find with them is the amount of space you need to make them really perform.
I am still running a set of IRS Betas myself, and enjoy them now as much as when I first heard them.
Unfortunately I do not have a big enough room to really do them justice, but even so they still sound amazing. The servo box allows for a fair amount of bass adjustment.
The PS Audio Music Room 1 build with the IRS MK Vs is an interesting series of videos to watch.
I nearly bought a set of RS-1b back in about 1998 but I knew I would never have a big enough room for them. I think the market was always limited. But there are always a few multi-tower 'if you have to ask' systems at any major hifi show.
But as Geddes has shown, once you are in the modal region of a room, multiple subs are best.
But as Geddes has shown, once you are in the modal region of a room, multiple subs are best.
Hi Bill,
I see a lot of super towers, but haven't really seen the sub-tower much lately. I just thought it was one idea that we'd see much more of today. Especially in DIY circles.
Space is a very serious consideration, of course, and yeah, give me a pair of 15" subs, EQ and bass traps and I can do wonders.
Still it was a dream of mine as a kid to do something like that.
Best,
E
I see a lot of super towers, but haven't really seen the sub-tower much lately. I just thought it was one idea that we'd see much more of today. Especially in DIY circles.
Space is a very serious consideration, of course, and yeah, give me a pair of 15" subs, EQ and bass traps and I can do wonders.
Still it was a dream of mine as a kid to do something like that.
Best,
E
Yes to above.
One nice thing about a floor to ceiling bass tower is that it tends to cancel the worst mode, being the floor to ceiling axial one. But the distributed array flattens that mode and all or most of the others, in a way no tower can touch.
I've heard plenty of the best floor to ceiling bass towers, and used to think its performance advantage was lower THD (the drivers barely move @ earth shaking level). I'm convinced that was wrong, and that its best performance advantage was less floor to ceiling bass mode.
The worst audible problem with bass modes is not FR related, but timing related. Bass notes last longer than the music program, and modes are perceived as bass players playing out of tune. The audible negative can not be overstated, and thoroughly overwhelms any other performance disadvantage of even a moderately sorted system.
Bass modes are why people like high bass cutoff and sealed, because sealed cutoff mimics the inverse of the average room gain, being about 7 dB per octave <100 Hz (that and no port tuning overlap with a room mode).
A setup with the 6 X 12" per side and a set of infinity electrostatics beside them is to this day the best listening experience I've ever had. That was in the early 90's and I think at the time the asking price for that combo (which I don't think was a standard combo) was $35K AU.
This was in a very large (vendors) room The nearest wall in any direction was probably 10 - 15 feet.
Tony.
This was in a very large (vendors) room The nearest wall in any direction was probably 10 - 15 feet.
Tony.
That would have been the Infinity IRS speakers, the last versions were the MK Vs of which only 58 sets were made.
I believe they went for 70K US back in the day, and each bass tower had built in 1.5 KW amplifiers.
A buddy of mine had a chance to listen to them in Las Vegas and made the same comment you did.
He also said they were as great to look at as they sounded, with a beautiful rosewood finish.
Building a new Music Room Part 7 - YouTube
Sad to say I never had a chance to hear them myself
I believe they went for 70K US back in the day, and each bass tower had built in 1.5 KW amplifiers.
A buddy of mine had a chance to listen to them in Las Vegas and made the same comment you did.
He also said they were as great to look at as they sounded, with a beautiful rosewood finish.
Building a new Music Room Part 7 - YouTube
Sad to say I never had a chance to hear them myself
I'd venture a combination of the high end audio pricing itself into a niche market (while TVs took over that media tech focus in the household), the vast improvement of driver technology that allowed for lower distortion, higher excursion, higher power handling drivers that could reproduce similar SPL (but not PVL) with fewer drivers in less space and the rise of the "slow bass"/"nothing below 35-50Hz" myths in the hobby that made actual bass reproduction and antithesis to "good sound".
That would be Fabio. Yes, that Fabio. He had an incredible system back in the day and even had one of two pairs of Krell MDA-600S monoblocks (bridged Krell KSA-300S with a KAS style meter).
That would be Fabio. Yes, that Fabio. He had an incredible system back in the day and even had one of two pairs of Krell MDA-600S monoblocks (bridged Krell KSA-300S with a KAS style meter).
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That would have been the Infinity IRS speakers, the last versions were the MK Vs of which only 58 sets were made.
I believe they went for 70K US back in the day, and each bass tower had built in 1.5 KW amplifiers.
A buddy of mine had a chance to listen to them in Las Vegas and made the same comment you did.
He also said they were as great to look at as they sounded, with a beautiful rosewood finish.
Building a new Music Room Part 7 - YouTube
Sad to say I never had a chance to hear them myself
What I think I listened to was actually infinity IRS Beta's but with the Woofer stacks from the IRS MK V. It was definitely wasn't the line array from the IRS MK V. That's why I think it had to have been a custom setup.
I don't remember the amps that were driving the Electrostatics, but I do remember that they had a warning sign that you needed an engineers certificate to ensure your floor was able to handle the weight! They were mono-blocks and I think they weighed in at 500KG (I don't remember if that was each or in total).
The system as set up was a cool $100K which was a massive amount in the early 90's!
It may not be a bad thing you haven't heard them. I was so depressed when I went home and listened to my speakers, which up until that point I thought sounded pretty good! All these years later I have some speakers that I've designed that I'm reasonably happy with, however I know that they are still so far from that setup I heard all those years ago.
Tony.
Interesting conversation.
I was never able to listen to such towers, be it Infinity or DIY versions, and I'm intrigued about your thoughts (having heard them) towards DIY with current means such as DSP, digital active xo, etc.
I did try Geddes approach. It works very well in mitigating the magnitude of SPL variations around the room in the subwoofer region, of course. But If you always listen sitting down in a 5' wide sweet spot area then difference I didn't find shocking. In fact I'm back to running the mains speakers woofers down to 80Hz, actively xo to stereo subs, and DSP the whole setup. One challenge with Geddes approach to subs I found was the time-alignment of midbass to multiple subs spread out in the room.
My subs are DIY boxes for 12" Rythmik's servo subs up to 80Hz. And two 10" Beymas per side for midbass. I see Gryphon's tower is crossed at 250Hz. In my setup, would you tower sub, midbass, both, neither? From the comments I understand the benefit the towers bring is amount of air being displaced and room mode cancellation in the vertical dimension, so I guess I should consider it for subs and midbass to get to 200Hz area? That would demand a lot of room for sure.
I was never able to listen to such towers, be it Infinity or DIY versions, and I'm intrigued about your thoughts (having heard them) towards DIY with current means such as DSP, digital active xo, etc.
I did try Geddes approach. It works very well in mitigating the magnitude of SPL variations around the room in the subwoofer region, of course. But If you always listen sitting down in a 5' wide sweet spot area then difference I didn't find shocking. In fact I'm back to running the mains speakers woofers down to 80Hz, actively xo to stereo subs, and DSP the whole setup. One challenge with Geddes approach to subs I found was the time-alignment of midbass to multiple subs spread out in the room.
My subs are DIY boxes for 12" Rythmik's servo subs up to 80Hz. And two 10" Beymas per side for midbass. I see Gryphon's tower is crossed at 250Hz. In my setup, would you tower sub, midbass, both, neither? From the comments I understand the benefit the towers bring is amount of air being displaced and room mode cancellation in the vertical dimension, so I guess I should consider it for subs and midbass to get to 200Hz area? That would demand a lot of room for sure.
Hmmm difficult question. The overall sound was just so real. It was a real "the singer is right there standing in front of me type moment" How much of that was due to the woofer stacks I don't know. I would say that they were ancillary in the scheme of things, but I don't know what the crossover point was.
Twelve 12" drivers is certainly going to move a lot of air! The room I listened to them in was very large. I've never even considered trying to DIY something similar.
Tony.
Twelve 12" drivers is certainly going to move a lot of air! The room I listened to them in was very large. I've never even considered trying to DIY something similar.
Tony.
That probably being the effect of the lpanel speakers. Most big panels do so by changing the direct to reverberant (read: early reflections) sound as they act as a line source and thus reducing first floor and ceiling reflections (phasing them out really). That still is one of the merits of such systems, although the bass layout is archaic by now.
Although the bass towers are impressive, I think the most appealing aspect of the IRS series speakers is as you have already described. Very revealing and exceptional highs as well as midrange. Everything I listened to with them was like hearing the music for the first time. It was at this point where I really learned to appreciate vocals and recording quality. The EMITs & EMIMs are real performers, and the L-EMIMs really help to blend the bass into the mix. The servo box also offers as much adjustablility as one could hope for too. Much of the overall "sound" of the MKVs and Betas can also be found in the single column Deltas and Gammas, the Gammas had the advantage of being equipped with the bass servo box. I used to have a pair of IRS Deltas, and I wish that I still had them as they were a more manageable size for your average living room. From what I have heard the Genesis series took them to another level, but I have not heard any of their models myself. From a diy point of view regarding the bass towers, the biggest challenge I think would be the smooth integration of the bass and the servo box or alternative to it.
I don't think they ever went away...
Genesis Advanced Technologies › Products › Genesis Prime high-end, cost-no-object, performance loudspeakers
Gary Koh took over where IRS left off. And besides Gryphon I've seen similar towers used with Adyton speakers.
Impetus Subwoofers
Mc Intosh used to do something similar too:
As well as some others:
bluemoonaudiotechnology.com LS3 - 4 ways. Ribbon Super Tweeter, AMT Tweeter and Cone Loudspeakers - bluemoonaudiotechnology.com
Nola Grand Reference VI Gold:
I'm sure if we look hard enough there will be more similar concepts around.
These bass towers will work much like distributed subs would do. Each driver will have a slightly different distance to room boundaries and working together they even out or average out a lot of room anomalies.
Couple it with todays availability of DSP to get very enchanting bass but in my humble opinion arrays work even better in the midrange, where they avoid (or rather average out) the floor and ceiling reflections.
For bass distributed subs might be cheaper though to get pretty much the same effect. These arrays are a lot less flexible of where to put them than 4 or more subs and will still interfere with parallel surfaces.
Genesis Advanced Technologies › Products › Genesis Prime high-end, cost-no-object, performance loudspeakers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Gary Koh took over where IRS left off. And besides Gryphon I've seen similar towers used with Adyton speakers.
Impetus Subwoofers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Mc Intosh used to do something similar too:
As well as some others:
bluemoonaudiotechnology.com LS3 - 4 ways. Ribbon Super Tweeter, AMT Tweeter and Cone Loudspeakers - bluemoonaudiotechnology.com
Nola Grand Reference VI Gold:
I'm sure if we look hard enough there will be more similar concepts around.
These bass towers will work much like distributed subs would do. Each driver will have a slightly different distance to room boundaries and working together they even out or average out a lot of room anomalies.
Couple it with todays availability of DSP to get very enchanting bass but in my humble opinion arrays work even better in the midrange, where they avoid (or rather average out) the floor and ceiling reflections.
For bass distributed subs might be cheaper though to get pretty much the same effect. These arrays are a lot less flexible of where to put them than 4 or more subs and will still interfere with parallel surfaces.
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