Well, I had swore off this option, but passive crossovers are looking like less and less of a best option (never mind the cost of the components if I get it wrong), so I'm exploring the option of using an Active Crossover. This sort of factors into my diy speaker budget, so I'm trying to keep things economical as well.. or at least cheaper than passive crossovers would be.
My amp/preamp is a HT receiver, a Yamaha RX-V870, which has worked great for many years and have no intention of replacing. It is 5.1, 80 watts per channel (front at least, I believe the center/rears are less), with a LF output for a subwoofer, and it does have L/R RCAs going from pre-amp to amp on the back (with couplers connecting them). My speakers will be 2-ways, with a full range and a large woofer, crossing around 150hz. I also have a center channel and rear channel speakers connected (and a powered sub), and like to watch movies in 5.1 as well as listen to music in stereo 40/60 perhaps... So I'd prefer to keep the surround sound.
So I need 150 hz on up going to the full range, and below 150 going to the woofer, okay fine, but how do I manage this while keeping the 5.1 surround sound?
-The yamaha is a perfectly good amplifier, but if I cut in between the amp/pre-amp RCAs with an active crossover, I can only connect back in the high or low frequency leg... Meaning that any amplified sound from the receiver from the center/rear/sub* outputs will only be the highs or low frequencies (above or below 150 hz).
*sub is a line level out RCA, not amplified
-I don't want to hack up the yamaha trying to trace signal paths and solder in line level inputs/outputs ahead of the various amplifier chips...
-I can add an active crossover and 2 channel (or 4 channel) cut in between the Yamaha pre-amp/amp RCAs and not use the Yamaha amp at all and at least get bi-amped stereo sound this way... but no surround sound?
I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, anyone want to point out the obvious solution?
Edit: Speaker thread for anyone interested/bored:
Full Range Build, 12" driver...
My amp/preamp is a HT receiver, a Yamaha RX-V870, which has worked great for many years and have no intention of replacing. It is 5.1, 80 watts per channel (front at least, I believe the center/rears are less), with a LF output for a subwoofer, and it does have L/R RCAs going from pre-amp to amp on the back (with couplers connecting them). My speakers will be 2-ways, with a full range and a large woofer, crossing around 150hz. I also have a center channel and rear channel speakers connected (and a powered sub), and like to watch movies in 5.1 as well as listen to music in stereo 40/60 perhaps... So I'd prefer to keep the surround sound.
So I need 150 hz on up going to the full range, and below 150 going to the woofer, okay fine, but how do I manage this while keeping the 5.1 surround sound?
-The yamaha is a perfectly good amplifier, but if I cut in between the amp/pre-amp RCAs with an active crossover, I can only connect back in the high or low frequency leg... Meaning that any amplified sound from the receiver from the center/rear/sub* outputs will only be the highs or low frequencies (above or below 150 hz).
*sub is a line level out RCA, not amplified
-I don't want to hack up the yamaha trying to trace signal paths and solder in line level inputs/outputs ahead of the various amplifier chips...
-I can add an active crossover and 2 channel (or 4 channel) cut in between the Yamaha pre-amp/amp RCAs and not use the Yamaha amp at all and at least get bi-amped stereo sound this way... but no surround sound?
I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, anyone want to point out the obvious solution?
Edit: Speaker thread for anyone interested/bored:
Full Range Build, 12" driver...
Scott, that may have been the obvious thing I missed, it does say "Front Out/In"... And there is a separate "Rear Out". Not sure if modifying the signal on that "Front" channel set only would affect the mains (which is what I need), or if it would affect the center channel as well?
Edit: I just saw there is a center out as well, that single black RCA above the low pass... So it would seem that's the best solution! Nice work!
Edit: I just saw there is a center out as well, that single black RCA above the low pass... So it would seem that's the best solution! Nice work!
FWIW, in addition to the bass management of which Erik speaks, some recent models by mainstream HT receiver manufactures actually include the feature to actively bi-amp the front L&R mains by reassigning a pair of the up to 9 amp channels and using the very powerful DSP engine for internal digital XO. I'm currently running an Onkyo with that feature ( TX-NR818), and it works very well indeed - allowing a very wide range of XO frequencies for the tweeter / woofer section, and of course the calibration / EQ set up by Odyssey or maker's own proprietary software takes pretty good care of level setting - mine even warns when any of the drivers or channels are out of phase. In the end, however, I decided that the front height channels added enough to the overall surround envelopment that I opted to run my MTM mains with a passive speaker level XO.
While an older model (i.e. - the S-Video and lack of HDMI connectivity), it looks like the V870 has a pre-main loop for the front channels into which a passive or even active XO could be installed that would allow biamping of the fronts, although that would likely add to the complexity of setting levels. I've owned a total of 4 models of surround receivers over the years, and to my mind the inclusion of auto speaker calibration in the DSP is nothing short of a god-send .
And, as Erik says, 150Hz is far too high to cross over to a mono mixed LFE channel - when using a plate or other "sub-amp" with built in crossover, you should be able to bypass it or set as low as it'll go when using the LP filter in the HT receiver.
I use small full-range drivers for front height and rear surrounds, and roll them off at 120Hz, but have settled on 80Hz for the MTM front mains - currently Alpair 12PX/MAOP7 - and 120Hz for the centre.(Alpair 10P)
edit:
well, it looks like most of mine above has already been covered, but I do note by reading the downloadable manual, Manual Library - Yamaha - Canada - English that the degree of flexibility in this unit is not what we're used to these days. As decent a sound piece of gear as it might be, it's quite possibly time to consider something from this century?
While an older model (i.e. - the S-Video and lack of HDMI connectivity), it looks like the V870 has a pre-main loop for the front channels into which a passive or even active XO could be installed that would allow biamping of the fronts, although that would likely add to the complexity of setting levels. I've owned a total of 4 models of surround receivers over the years, and to my mind the inclusion of auto speaker calibration in the DSP is nothing short of a god-send .
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And, as Erik says, 150Hz is far too high to cross over to a mono mixed LFE channel - when using a plate or other "sub-amp" with built in crossover, you should be able to bypass it or set as low as it'll go when using the LP filter in the HT receiver.
I use small full-range drivers for front height and rear surrounds, and roll them off at 120Hz, but have settled on 80Hz for the MTM front mains - currently Alpair 12PX/MAOP7 - and 120Hz for the centre.(Alpair 10P)
edit:
well, it looks like most of mine above has already been covered, but I do note by reading the downloadable manual, Manual Library - Yamaha - Canada - English that the degree of flexibility in this unit is not what we're used to these days. As decent a sound piece of gear as it might be, it's quite possibly time to consider something from this century?
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A new receiver would be nice, but not in the budget as such. Perhaps one day in the future though, when circumstances permit. For now, I just went thru and cleaned all the pots and replaced the backlight, so my trusty Yammy is good to go for another 20 years
Not sure why 150 would be too high to cross on the mains? (On an active it will be easily adjustable anyhow, so I can fuss with it til it sounds best) I'll likely be running Alpairs 10.3/12p or something similar for mids/highs, no need to stress them with LF excursion. LF will be handled by a single 18" woofer on each side, running 150 hz down to around 35 or 40 hz.
My little 12" Jensen powered sub will get sent off to garage duty and will be replacing it with something like a lilmike F20 or lilwrecker subwoofer for the living room to handle 22/17 hz to around 40 hz. Subwoofer will be run off an iNuke3000dsp, off the LF output on the receiver.
Edit:
This receiver also has A and B front outputs... But my understanding is that they are made to be used NON-simultaneously, so it's probably just one pair of amps switched either this way or that way.
Not sure why 150 would be too high to cross on the mains? (On an active it will be easily adjustable anyhow, so I can fuss with it til it sounds best) I'll likely be running Alpairs 10.3/12p or something similar for mids/highs, no need to stress them with LF excursion. LF will be handled by a single 18" woofer on each side, running 150 hz down to around 35 or 40 hz.
My little 12" Jensen powered sub will get sent off to garage duty and will be replacing it with something like a lilmike F20 or lilwrecker subwoofer for the living room to handle 22/17 hz to around 40 hz. Subwoofer will be run off an iNuke3000dsp, off the LF output on the receiver.
Edit:
This receiver also has A and B front outputs... But my understanding is that they are made to be used NON-simultaneously, so it's probably just one pair of amps switched either this way or that way.
If I understand you description of the situation, here are my thoughts. Get or make 2 RCA cables that have 2 plugs and one female receptor (Jack) per. Connect it such that the original path is unbroken, but now there's a female RCA tap that can go to a crossover and separate poweramps for biamp'd woofers and tweeters. As long as the crossover has a reasonably high input Z (50K would be nice, 10K might roll off some of the lowest bass), this should work fine. The crossover will need to have level controls obviously, not just to calibrate the biamp'd speaker, but also to get the overall amplitude compatible with the surround and center channels.
Since it sounds like you have a separate woofer doing low bass, you might want to consider using an 8 inch "mid-woofers" doing from the separate woofer top freq. (80 - 100HZ?) up to say 500HZ, where you could actively cross over to a 3 inch driver (such as the Peerless TG9FD1008 $22) because a 3 inch driver will do much better at the high end (almost flat to 15kHZ), and will have a better off axis response than a larger driver that can go down to 150HZ.
The FR graph shows that the TG9 can be flat down to 150HZ, but I learned the hard way that it really can't put out enough acoustic power below about 400HZ, where cone excursion starts to need to be high. Below 400HZ it's real nice to have much more cone surface area than any 3 inch driver will have. An 8 inch driver starts to become fairly directional in the upper hundreds of HZ, so if you cross it over just below that, the off axis FR will avoid the abrupt jump when going up in freq., that many commercial spkrs have. I built such a speaker myself and am very happy with it. I used a kevlar 8 inch woof, and the above mentioned TG9 driver, X=480HZ 4th order active xover, with the TG9 in a very non-resonant subenclosure. I also actively EQ'd the 8 inch woofer in a closed box to be acoustically relatively flat down to 30HZ.
By having a speaker that has no crossover between about 1kHZ and 6kHZ, the stereo imaging can be noticeably better since due to inter-aural cancellation, imaging below about 1kHZ is blurred in any system (except headphones), so most of the good stereo effect really only happens above about 1kHZ. So you don't want to do anything that messes with balance over frequency in that F range. Just some thoughts. Let me know if you need a good analog 4 pole crossover circuit. F can me changed by scaling certain part values, and verifying the result in the SPICE modeling software (or equiv.).
Here's a link to my above mentioned speaker system:
Untitled Document
Since it sounds like you have a separate woofer doing low bass, you might want to consider using an 8 inch "mid-woofers" doing from the separate woofer top freq. (80 - 100HZ?) up to say 500HZ, where you could actively cross over to a 3 inch driver (such as the Peerless TG9FD1008 $22) because a 3 inch driver will do much better at the high end (almost flat to 15kHZ), and will have a better off axis response than a larger driver that can go down to 150HZ.
The FR graph shows that the TG9 can be flat down to 150HZ, but I learned the hard way that it really can't put out enough acoustic power below about 400HZ, where cone excursion starts to need to be high. Below 400HZ it's real nice to have much more cone surface area than any 3 inch driver will have. An 8 inch driver starts to become fairly directional in the upper hundreds of HZ, so if you cross it over just below that, the off axis FR will avoid the abrupt jump when going up in freq., that many commercial spkrs have. I built such a speaker myself and am very happy with it. I used a kevlar 8 inch woof, and the above mentioned TG9 driver, X=480HZ 4th order active xover, with the TG9 in a very non-resonant subenclosure. I also actively EQ'd the 8 inch woofer in a closed box to be acoustically relatively flat down to 30HZ.
By having a speaker that has no crossover between about 1kHZ and 6kHZ, the stereo imaging can be noticeably better since due to inter-aural cancellation, imaging below about 1kHZ is blurred in any system (except headphones), so most of the good stereo effect really only happens above about 1kHZ. So you don't want to do anything that messes with balance over frequency in that F range. Just some thoughts. Let me know if you need a good analog 4 pole crossover circuit. F can me changed by scaling certain part values, and verifying the result in the SPICE modeling software (or equiv.).
Here's a link to my above mentioned speaker system:
Untitled Document
Bingo - something like this to power the subs? Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier
I have a pair of these in my own system - run full range / bridged into mono- and they work nicely.
You'd still need a minimal HP filter on the loop back into the Yammies front channel power amps inputs. I think this would allow you to retain the 5.1, and the level adjustment between front woofers and FR / mid/tweets should only be a one time thing.
I have a pair of these in my own system - run full range / bridged into mono- and they work nicely.
You'd still need a minimal HP filter on the loop back into the Yammies front channel power amps inputs. I think this would allow you to retain the 5.1, and the level adjustment between front woofers and FR / mid/tweets should only be a one time thing.
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Haha, Chris you should see what I drive... I will admit however that having all that built in, with automated adjustments probably is a godsend indeed!
But,you've got to pay for it... For now, I'd rather spend half of the cost of a new AV receiver and build an overkill subwoofer for movies
The LFE mono out on the receiver is apparently 200 hz - I'd use a low pass on the sub amp to bring that down to 40 hz or so (determined experimentally). And that class D Inuke3000dsp I mentioned has DSP (obviously
so there's lots of room for tuning there.Part of what I'd like to avoid is a bunch of various rack mountable boxes on a shelf that look half baked.. I don't mind it, but the wife will..
Almost tempting to get a 2nd similar Yammy receiver and use it only as an amp.. but then still need an active crossover, and the 2nd receiver takes up a lot of room!
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Anyone try something like these for crossovers?
Linkwitz-Riley 2-Way Active Crossover - 24dB/Octave - Assembled and Tested | eBay
It's over my head, but his description of it certainly sounds good, phase matching, THD, swappable resister plugs and all.
He's got some other interesting things too, amps and power supplies
vs. going the Behringer route, like the CX2310?
In other words, is there any real upside to something that that LR 24db crossover, or is that basically what's inside the Behrenger stuff anyway?
Linkwitz-Riley 2-Way Active Crossover - 24dB/Octave - Assembled and Tested | eBay
It's over my head, but his description of it certainly sounds good, phase matching, THD, swappable resister plugs and all.
He's got some other interesting things too, amps and power supplies
vs. going the Behringer route, like the CX2310?
In other words, is there any real upside to something that that LR 24db crossover, or is that basically what's inside the Behrenger stuff anyway?
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