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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

12" woofer for SEOS12 build, 12PLB100?
12" woofer for SEOS12 build, 12PLB100?
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:11 PM   #11
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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I was able to run some quick response tests on the DE500 last night. Plots are about 5-10 degrees off axis at about 1.5 m. They looks fairly similar to the data EarlK posted (from Autotech?) earlier in this thread.
Dan
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File Type: jpg DE250_DE500.JPG (229.7 KB, 259 views)

Last edited by Dan_E10; 15th August 2017 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 15th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #12
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Make that "response tests to compare the DE500 and DE250" if it's not obvious in the image. Green is DE500, red is DE250.
Dan
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Old 15th August 2017, 02:57 PM   #13
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Hi Dan,

Thanks for the new graphs ( they're pretty interesting in their general agreement with other peoples measurements, including those Autotech graphs that I posted previously ).

A few thoughts ( no specific order of importance );

(i) To give the de500 the best audition ( or chance in a comparison to the de250 ), consider implementing some version of a 30 PPI Geddes filter // before deciding on the driver's sonics merits for your use .

(ii) Are you able to create .ZMA impedance files of your drivers for network design purposes ?

(iii) Do you have some proficiency in working with XSim ?

(iv) Passive filters do have a subtle difference in sound when compared to active ( generally, they are less dynamic due to resistive losses ) > though this attribute benefits the speaker designer when he/she is wanting to match-up components that have such large disparate sensitivities .

IOW, I believe it'll be to your benefit if you wire up some horn padding networks ( that also include some basic HF compensation ) .
- You can still do everything else electronically ( for now ) when it comes to creating HP's & LP's ( as well as any needed notch-filters ) .

(v) I've already created passive filters for these drivers using for your response pics ( as well as AutoTechs pics ) .
- I'll post them here at some point.


Last edited by EarlK; 15th August 2017 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 15th August 2017, 05:39 PM   #14
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
Hi Dan,

Thanks for the new graphs ( they're pretty interesting in their general agreement with other peoples measurements, including those Autotech graphs that I posted previously ).
Hi Earl,
No problem. I too found it interesting how close they were to the Autotech measurements. I noticed their data was taken at 1m, mine was 1.5. When I have a bit more time, I will lug everything upstairs to get better 2m measurements and full polar data. The 7 1/2' ceilings in my basement limit the reflection free window unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
A few thoughts ( no specific order of importance );

(i) To give the de500 the best audition ( or chance in a comparison to the de250 ), consider implementing some version of a 30 PPI Geddes filter // before deciding on the driver's sonics merits for your use .
This is on the agenda. I'm not sure I'll have the time to fab up some foam plugs before I have to send either the DE500's or the DE250's back. I will say that so far the DE250's sound so good I wouldn't feel a need for the foam plugs, but I'd still like to try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
(ii) Are you able to create .ZMA impedance files of your drivers for network design purposes ?

(iii) Do you have some proficiency in working with XSim ?
I haven't worked in XSim. I take my measurements with HOLM Impulse and SoundEasy. SoundEasy can take impedance measurements but I'm not sure if I can export a zma file from it. It might take me some time to get set up for impedance measurements. I'll be sure to post them when I get something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
(iv) Passive filters do have a subtle difference in sound when compared to active ( generally, they are less dynamic due to resistive losses ) > though this attribute benefits the speaker designer when he/she is wanting to match-up components that have such large disparate sensitivities .

IOW, I believe it'll be to your benefit if you wire up some horn padding networks ( that also include some basic HF compensation ) .
- You can still do everything else electronically ( for now ) when it comes to creating HP's & LP's ( as well as any needed notch-filters ) .
This sounds like a good idea. For now, the output of my audio interface runs to a couple different amps. I dialed down the volume control on the amp feeding the compression drivers so I wouldn't need to scale the tweeter signal down digitally. My current filtering software is Frequency Allocator from Thuneau. It works very well and uses regular minimum phase filters and eq so reproducing what it does with passive circuits is not that difficult. I usually take a couple response measurement with and without filtering. Then in SoundEasy a circuit can be made to get the noneq'd response to match the filtered measurement. The final result seems fairly close subjectively. The main improvement I've noticed when running the passive circuit is the lack of noise from not having to run my old Yamaha receiver to provide the extra channels of amplification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
(v) I've already created passive filters for these drivers using for your response pics ( as well as AutoTechs pics ) .
- I'll post them here at some point.

Thanks Earl!

Dan
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Old 15th August 2017, 05:45 PM   #15
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Earl,
You had suggested the Deltalite's above. Those sound like a good option and quite a bit cheaper for me than the B&C's. Do you know what the limiting factor on sensitivity for the DE250/SEOS12 combination is? I realize you lose about 9-10 dB performing the CD equalization back to flat. It sounds like maybe another dB or few if 30 ppi foam plugs are added. How sensitive of a woofer can I expect to mate well to the final compression driver/waveguide combo?
Dan
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Old 15th August 2017, 09:16 PM   #16
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_E10 View Post
Earl,
You had suggested the Deltalite's above. Those sound like a good option and quite a bit cheaper for me than the B&C's. Do you know what the limiting factor on sensitivity for the DE250/SEOS12 combination is? I realize you lose about 9-10 dB performing the CD equalization back to flat. It sounds like maybe another dB or few if 30 ppi foam plugs are added. How sensitive of a woofer can I expect to mate well to the final compression driver/waveguide combo?
Dan
Hi Dan,

From my perspective, the woofers sensitivity will limit your project to around 95db ( for a "real" 8 ohm woofer ) .

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Old 15th August 2017, 09:33 PM   #17
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
Hi Dan,

From my perspective, the woofers sensitivity will limit your project to around 95db ( for a "real" 8 ohm woofer ) .

okay, that's good to know. So the compression driver won't be the limiting factor in that case. I had noticed the Deltalite's rated sensitivity of 99.9 dB and was wondering. Looking at it's response plot, it doesn't get to 100 dB until above 1000 Hz. I'll be crossing over somewhere in that range so it looks like the woofer would be the limiting factor as you suggest.
Dan
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Old 15th August 2017, 10:15 PM   #18
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlK View Post
Hi Dan,

From my perspective, the woofers sensitivity will limit your project to around 95db ( for a "real" 8 ohm woofer ) .

Earl,
Do you know what the DE250/SEOS combo sensitivity will be at after equalization? How much padding is still needed to get down to 95 dB?
Dan
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Old 16th August 2017, 08:23 PM   #19
EarlK is offline EarlK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_E10 View Post
Earl,
Do you know what the DE250/SEOS combo sensitivity will be at after equalization? How much padding is still needed to get down to 95 dB?
Dan
Hi Dan,

Here's an HF Comp. network for you ( if you want to try one ) ;

> CLICK the PIC ( it's quite oversized )!!

12" woofer for SEOS12 build, 12PLB100?-seos12_de500-de250-hfcomp_fr-png

The LCR notch filter isn't mandatory ( though it'll help for comparative purposes I believe ) .



BTW, the FRD files are traces of your own FR captures, while the ZMA files were created from the AutoTech pic .
Attached Images
File Type: png SEOS12_de500+de250+HFcomp_FR.png (74.9 KB, 263 views)

Last edited by EarlK; 16th August 2017 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 16th August 2017, 09:36 PM   #20
Dan_E10 is offline Dan_E10  United States
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Thanks Earl. What are L1 and C1 in your diagram? That response looks very good.
Dan
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