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New Danley Invention
New Danley Invention
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:57 PM   #51
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
129dB at 1w 1m?
Unlikely.
I think 112db/w/m is the maximum.
100% efficiency.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:58 PM   #52
simon7000 is offline simon7000  United States
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If you decrease the coverage area you can increase the on axis level.
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Old 1st February 2018, 03:07 PM   #53
IG81 is offline IG81  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by globalplayer View Post
Unlikely.
I think 112db/w/m is the maximum.
100% efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
If you decrease the coverage area you can increase the on axis level.
Indeed, 112dB/W/m is 1 acoustic Watt measured in full (4Pi) space.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:35 PM   #54
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Well, it's that time again. Time for Bateman to play "what's going on in that new Danley box?"

Here's my stab at it. Everything I'm about to say is rampant speculation based on pictures I found on Facebook. (Thank you Nathan Riddle.)

Click the image to open in full size.

This is the outside of the Danley J7

Click the image to open in full size.

This is the inside of the Danley J7

If I am correct about what is going on in this box, I see this design as basically a refinement of the Jericho horn technology.

Click the image to open in full size.

If you look at the original Jericho horns, they are very large and heavy. The Jericho J1 is 47 cubic feet and weighs 720lbs.

Click the image to open in full size.

The new J7 is 12 cubic feet and weighs 265lbs.

So...

How does Danley reduce box volume by 83% while keeping the output high?

The KEY is that the output of your loudspeaker is nearly always limited by the tweeter. That's why Danley went to such effort with the Paraline and the Layered Combiner imho; the Jericho line wouldn't be possible without some type of device that can combine the output of multiple tweeters.

From what I can see in these pics, the tweeter array in the J7 is nearly identical to the tweeter array in the J6, nothing really new here. It uses an Eminence N151M ring radiator, which to me sure looks a lot like a BMS 4552, but at a much lower cost. (Cerwin Vega patented the ring radiator and that patent expire a couple months back, hence why you see so many new ring radiators coming out.)

From my own tinkering, I've found that using very small tweeters maximizes the output, because your Achilles Heel is how much output you can generate above about 5-10khz. Neodymium ring radiators are ideal because they have a lot of BL and very low MMS, because a ring has less mass than a dome, inherently. I have two BMS 4526HE sitting on my desk that I'm dying to use in a design.

Click the image to open in full size.
I think there's something new going on in the J6 and J7 Jericho horns. If you look at the midrange taps in the J7, there appears to be TWO taps shared by ONE midrange.

In the Synergy Horn, the midrange taps are shallow, about 1/2" - 3/4" in depth.

Here's the thing : I don't think they have to be.

Here's why:

If you look at the geometry of a conventional Synergy Horn, there's an abrupt transition from the midrange to the horn. You basically have a 4" midrange compression a small volume of air under the cone, and the air exits the compression chamber via the midrange taps.

If you could make that channel longer, you may be able to improve the horn in two ways. First, you increase the pathlength of the midrange horn. By doing so, you "load" the midrange horn down to a lower frequency. For instance, in a Danley SH50, the pathlength from the midrange taps to the mouth of the horn is about 14" iirc. (Doing this off the top of my head.) That loads the midrange down to about 241hz, which is fine for the SH50.

But what if you want to make the horn shallower? That creates a problem.

So adding a lengthy "channel" to the midrange taps can be beneficial in a lot of ways.

Click the image to open in full size.
If you look at the midrange taps in my current project ("Unitized" Image Control Waveguide) that's why they're so long and deep. It's to compensate for the fact that the waveguide is so shallow.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Based on the pictures of the midrange basket from Danley's Facebook video, I believe it's a Beyma 6MCF200ND.

The Beyma is brutally expensive for a midrange ($239!!) but it has some really neat attributes for a Jericho horn.

Click the image to open in full size.
The 6MCF200ND is 7dB more efficient than the midrange used in the SH50*. The power handling of the 6MCF200ND is nearly seven times higher. The response is smoother. The cone is waterproof.

This is NOT a cheap midrange, but it's arguably better in just about every way.

But there's one little problem...

The 6MCF200ND is SO loud and SO efficient, it creates a new problem, which is that you really don't need eight of them do you?

If you look at the front of the J7, and then you look at the back, I see eight midrange taps but only four midranges. So I'm speculating that this is possibly a whole new midrange tap design. I should fire up Hornresp to see how long you can make those taps. Six inches long? A foot long? Eighteen inches long?

I think that the KEY to the midrange tap design is that you'll want it to keep expanding. If you don't, you'll roll off your highs like crazy. If you look at the taps on my design, note that they're expanding the whole time, that's why the taps are so long and skinny at the exit.

In a nutshell, I believe we're looking at a new midrange tap design. I believe the new design allows Danley to use larger and more expensive midranges than they used to. Basically use one big expensive unit that delivers as much output as four or even eight of the older units. Another nice thing about the Beyma is that it features shorting rings and a low QES. This will generally allow you to use a higher crossover on the midranges, which leads to (you guessed it) more output and more power handling. Because that means the tweeter array doesn't have to work so hard. A nice side effect is that it also makes loudspeaker maintenance easier; with four units wired series parallel, if you lose one unit, all the midrange goes away. With eight midranges, it is possible you might not notice that a midrange had failed.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some mass loading going on here too, as that's been a (fairly) unnoticed feature of the Danley designs for the last three years.

Anyways, check my post history if any of this makes no sense whatsoever. In particular my musings on the J6.

* note : I've read some posts from SH50 owners who indicated that the drivers may have changed over time. So it's very possible that the 2019 SH50 uses a different driver complement than the 2014 SH50.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 12th June 2019 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:47 PM   #55
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Here's my guesstimate of what's going on in the J6, from last year:

horn, bandpass, horn, synergy?
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Old 13th June 2019, 05:22 AM   #56
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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As described in post #54, I believe the new Danley Jerichos may be using a phase plug on the midranges. The advantage of a phase plug on the midranges is that it compensates for the shallow depth of the horns.

I might be completely wrong, so take this post with a grain of salt!

Even if I *am* wrong, I intend to illustrate how a midrange phase plug can be helpful for your horns.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's my waveguide. It's two cubic feet, versus the twelve cubic feet of the J7. My waveguide measures 20.5" x 20.5" x 9".

Click the image to open in full size.
Jericho Seven for comparison.

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the response of four midranges on the waveguide I designed, the blue one, that's two cubic feet.

Looks terrible, right?

Here's what's going on:

One of the "tricks" in Unity and Synergy Horns is that the midranges are in an undersized enclosure. Here's why:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the response of the Celestion TF0410MR. See how the response rises on the low end?

Here's why we want that:

Click the image to open in full size.
The Unity and Synergy horns aren't large enough to horn load the midranges all the way down to 100 or 200Hz. They're just not big enough. For instance, the Lambda Unity Horn loads the midranges down to about 300hz. What this means, is that ABOVE 300hz we're getting real horn loading, raising the output level. The inherent peak at 500hz has the effect of offsetting the steep 4th order roll-off of a front loaded horn. I believe this is considered "reactance annulling" but don't quote me on that.

Click the image to open in full size.

The horn that I propose, the blue one that's two cubic feet, it is too shallow. Because it is so shallow, it is not loading the midranges. That's why there's that big peak on the low end. The midrange that I used for my desings is the Eminence PRO 5W-8.

If I am correct, and the horn is too shallow, there's an obvious solution: make the horn deeper. But if you do that, it's going to have a narrower beamwidth, and a bigger box, and it will start to look a lot like a Synergy Horn.

So...

I'm curious if we can "have our cake and eat it too" by using a phase plug to keep the same horn, while making the pathlength longer by using a long deep phase plug on every one of the midranges.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:48 AM   #57
kyleneuron is offline kyleneuron
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The only driver change on the SH50 has been the midrange drivers, which are now an OEM Misco unit.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:50 AM   #58
kyleneuron is offline kyleneuron
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The SH50 has only changed midrange, to an OEM Misco, I think approximately 5 years ago.

How much do you want me to stick my camera down against those taps in the mouth of the J7 today....
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:19 PM   #59
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleneuron View Post
The SH50 has only changed midrange, to an OEM Misco, I think approximately 5 years ago.

How much do you want me to stick my camera down against those taps in the mouth of the J7 today....
Click the image to open in full size.

What I'd love to see is a couple of pics like this, but taken off-axis, so we can see how many midranges there are and how they're arranged.

As noted on the Facebook group, I agree there's a fairly good chance that the midranges are tapped into the diffraction slot, and those big taps on the horn are for the woofers, not the midranges.

Having said that, my Akabak model *does* seem to indicate that a phase plug on the midranges works. It's possibly too much hassle for DSL, because their products are CNC routed. Phase plugs aren't easy to do on a CNC.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:48 PM   #60
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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How about this: skip the midrange and use 8 SB65’s in a paraline of vdosc. You then only needs the big basses to complete the horn. It would make for a much simpler setup. But would it work?

Also a consideration: how well would such a speaker work in a home environment?
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