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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
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Old 29th April 2017, 01:57 AM   #21
chrapladm is offline chrapladm  Australia
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Is there an intended budget thought of yet?

My idea was along the lines of a SH64/96 for my build. Not the cheapest option but I dont mind the wait. I do like the size of the SH64 the best for my wants thought.

Not sure how I missed seeing your 402 MEH build. I havent been on ALL the forums in quite a while now so I could have easily missed it. That would have been quite amazing to see and hear.

And regarding a cheaper option I would just build what SpeakerScott, I think, made years ago. I believe he used Dayton 10's on his build. I should have built that in the past but never got around to it.
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Old 29th April 2017, 03:20 AM   #22
BWRX is offline BWRX  United States
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I'm not seriously considering a DIY Synergy system at the moment, but am always interested in learning about new technologies and implementations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05
1) What common compression driver(s) and woofers would you most want to use (brand and model) in a kit?
Doesn't matter as long as it sounds good! A high performance/price ratio is obviously desirable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05
2) What is the lowest crossing frequency (i.e., "fc") that you would want out of the loudspeaker?
Around 100Hz because it must crossover to a typical sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05
3) What maximum size would you be willing to build/buy for your listening environment?
The absolute max size (and this is probably pushing it) for each speaker would probably be around 36in wide by 24in high x 24in deep. It would be a stereo pair of speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05
4) How much would you realistically be willing to spend per loudspeaker to make them from a kit?
Probably around $200 for a pair of enclosures without drivers, maybe $400 for a pair including the drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05
5) Would you be willing to use an active crossover instead of passive?
Probably, as long as the active solution could be modified/reused for use with other systems.
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Old 29th April 2017, 03:45 AM   #23
chrapladm is offline chrapladm  Australia
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Would be great if there was an ala carte style so you could add what you were using and the panels would be made accordingly.
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Old 29th April 2017, 11:49 AM   #24
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Is there an intended budget thought of yet?
Budget for a total kit price, or budget to build the pieces which produce a kit?

Due to the nature of the questions posed at the top of this thread, I don't have a kit price yet. What price ceiling would you consider for a kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Not sure how I missed seeing your 402 MEH build. I havent been on ALL the forums in quite a while now so I could have easily missed it. That would have been quite amazing to see and hear.
See the K-forum thread.
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Old 29th April 2017, 01:14 PM   #25
chrapladm is offline chrapladm  Australia
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For me its hard to even say a price because shipping costs end up doubling the price. Some of the speaker kits available now I would have bought but add in shipping and it gets too dear.

SO thats why I mentioned ala carte. I would use things I could get easily here in my own country.

For in the USA I think a reasonable kit would be maybe 500. BUT thats with no consideration at all of anything. Once you figure in a few things maybe that number goes up.

As I said SpeakerScott's build is a great example. Uses Dayton 8's(I was wrong earlier) and other parts for not a LOT of coin.

Here is Scott's amazing build. If shipping wasnt as bad as it is I would build this for indoors. I just happen to need something for outdoors like the SH64 also.

Synergy Horns-Dayton and PRV.....
SO this is what I would base a kit on. Or at least something similar with available parts.


Thanks for your link also.
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Old 30th April 2017, 10:10 PM   #26
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nc535 View Post
...I've never heard horn bass for the lowest octaves so perhaps I'm wrong about this.
So you've not heard a Khorn, La Scala, Belle or Jubilee.

Perhaps I should explain my position on this subject. I think that part of the issue with a full-range MEH is awareness of the effects of horn-loaded bass on hi-fi reproduction. This is a well-worn topic of conversation on at least one forum. Once you've heard it (and you already have a good concept of what acoustic--not amplified--bass and percussion sounds like) then I find that virtually everyone prefers its clean, crisp sound. This is the proverbial "legit musicians prefer corner horns" story. The sound of a slamming car door sound just like the real thing, while direct radiating drivers overemphasize and overshoot the actual sound. The following excerpt was taken from a noted review of the Klipschorn in 1986 by Richard C. Heyser:

Quote:
Many years ago, when listening to a...pair of Klipschorns, I decided to find out how accurate the low end was. So I placed two high-quality condenser microphones outside my house, in a location where I could listen to the sound they picked up while viewing the same microphone location through a picture window that stretched between the two Klipschorns. It was only a matter of walking outside and listening, then walking inside and listening to compare the reproduced sound with reality. I could also switch between the K-horns and a pair of excellent speakers whose bass could shake the house on pipe organ; they made the K-horns sound thin by comparison.

Then a funny thing happened. The sound of a slammed car door sounded like a slammed car door on the K-horns, but sounded like muffled "whumps" on the "wider range" system. The same with helicopter fly-overs (quite frequent where I used to live) and with the sound of distant traffic.

I never forgot that experiment nor its ear-opening ramifications with regard to sonic accuracy versus measurement. Quite true, I have listened to many excellent subwoofers that could shake the walls at 10 Hz, while the K-horn produced little sound pressure even an octave above that frequency. But in my personal opinion, accurate, percussive bass is a specialty which a properly set-up corner horn seems to have to itself.
To skip to the end of that conversation--for me, the sound of good horn-loaded bass hasn't been duplicated by any direct radiating woofers, either in vented boxes or closed box/acoustic suspensions. The includes up to 4x15" woofers in a large vented box.

In my experience, slot loading is only intermediate to horn loading in terms of effect on the sound--a consolation prize.

Note that as a point of departure, the K-402-MEH loads to the same low 31 Hz point as a Khorn bass bin when placed in a room corner. Against a wall, it easily loads to 40 Hz. It holds its polars so well that it doesn't benefit from being spaced away from room boundaries--in fact, it benefits greatly from boundary gain.

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Old 30th April 2017, 10:51 PM   #27
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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It's apparent Richard found this out for himself but he hasn't made it clear whether the solution itself was a horn, a room corner or the resulting distributed pressures? Corner placement can help here and the response must be fairly correct, (to reproduce such wideband effects as a car door, separating the clink of the striker from the tactile feel of the weight of the car so it can be recognised without any though processes).

The corner gives a location from which a source can launch a wavefront that can remain relatively undisturbed for several milliseconds before beginning to achieve room sized expansion and direct listener sound without yet reflecting. Question: If you create a woofer corner source based on a closed box, yet build it properly matching the floor and two side walls to guide it out, do you call it a direct radiator? Would it sound good?
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Old 30th April 2017, 11:42 PM   #28
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
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Default The pre-built option...

Hardly a new idea but why not buy (or consider the parts list of) the Yorkville Unity U15? This is a true Unity design, been on the market over ten years, maybe 20? Brand new they are $1400 each or less. For this you get a fugly but durable PA cabinet with a 15" conical horn comprised of a

BMS 4550-OEM compression driver "tweeter"
3x Celestion 5" mids
1x 15" 18Sound woofer

Yes, it is designed for PA use which means loud and not very low bass. If you were able to find a "parts or repair" used pair for (say) 1/4 the price new, and bypass the crossovers (which were blown anyway), and actively EQ them, you might have a nice pair of Unity. Which is exactly what I did.

I still applaud efforts to offer a flat pack version. We've been waiting what, 15 years?
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Old 1st May 2017, 02:22 AM   #29
nc535 is offline nc535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Question: If you create a woofer corner source based on a closed box, yet build it properly matching the floor and two side walls to guide it out, do you call it a direct radiator? Would it sound good?
That is exactly what I've done in "My Synergy Corner Horns and Bass Bins. Well, not exactly - I'm only using the two side walls to guide the sound out, not the floor. I think it sounds good. I think I'll get my subs out of storage some day to support it below 40 Hz for HT but I'm not in any hurry to do so.

I haven't heard Jubilee or K-Horn or LaScala but I have studied those designs down to the level of Horn Resp models and drawing my own Sketchup models. I went with a sealed slot loaded woofer with corner gain would give me more extension than a horn path that nominally that shows loading down to 60 Hz at best, IIRCC. That is interesting because that is about the same point where my TD15Hs start rolling off and sealed boxes roll off less quickly than a horn below cutoff. TD15s are relatively high excursion compared to what typically is used in that kind of horn, which is designed not to need much excursion, above cutoff anyway.

I think that the 15" woofers on the sides of the Cask MEH are acting essentially as sealed woofers. I don't see the horn as deep enough to provide much benefit down below 60 Hz. Corner gain in spades but only down to where the room walls become transparent to the bass which in my house is around 35 hz.
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Old 1st May 2017, 03:40 AM   #30
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
If you want this thread to be a rehash of 3-way MEH kit threads, then I suppose you could simply answer with that kind of thinking. However, that's not what I'm planning.
I think you should make the 2-way thing explicit in post 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
I've been using 1.4" and 2" compression drivers on K-402 two-way Jubilees for almost 10 years now--crossed at 400 Hz and extending up to 16-18 kHz, whose performance is spectacular, IME.
"spectacular" sounds good.

Why not make a kit that is basically a postage-friendly clone of your home system, so that people in other countries can enjoy them too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
But you can answer in any way that you wish (short of feeding trolls, of course)...
My answer:

Assume people want exactly what you want - a hacked 402 (or similar), and simply make it easy for them to get it.
https://community.klipsch.com/index....le-entry-horn/

Assume people will use active crossovers and can spare a few dollars for a basic measuring mic.

I'd rather get a $100 mic to measure + tweak my crossover to work with my room and with locally available drivers, than spend $1000 extra on shipping + taxes for the 'official' drivers.

Therefore, I'd suggest offering the kit as a flat pack of ply + a few bits of cast steel (or plastic):

-4 big triangles of ply per horn (with screw holes pre-drilled & woofer ports pre-cut)
-A throat section that mounts the CD and covers the round-to-square transition
-Corner sections (simple L - shaped brackets)

...so the kit builder would just need to screw the brackets & throat into the ply to get the horn shape, then run a bead of glue over the joins to make them airtight.

I'd suggest leaving off the ply for international orders - just sell the cast parts and a detailed plan for cutting the wood.

POINT BY POINT:

5) Would you be willing to use an active crossover instead of passive?

Yes. Just assume this.

4) How much would you realistically be willing to spend per loudspeaker to make them from a kit?

For the most basic cast parts + cutting plan version, about $250.

3) What maximum size would you be willing to build/buy for your listening environment?

You could sell a couple of different sizes. Just make the ply triangles different sizes.

For the most basic cast parts + cutting plan version, the end user could decide for themselves - they'd make the horn bigger simply by cutting bigger pieces of ply.

2) What is the lowest crossing frequency (i.e., "fc") that you would want out of the loudspeaker?

See above answer; end user decides

1) What common compression driver(s) and woofers would you most want to use (brand and model) in a kit?

See above. Have a list of recommend parts, but don't make anything mandatory.
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