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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
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Old 28th April 2017, 01:50 PM   #11
EspenE is offline EspenE  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pk View Post
Since Synergies are complicated, I would definitely go for building an absolutely no-compromise speaker. I do not want to use the next years thinking: "Ok, these are great, but could they get even better if I bought better CDs/woofers??"
Best regards
Peter
Yes! I agree: a complicated endeavour like this should be based on the best possible components.

1. I would prefer a large format (4" diaphragm size) Be compression driver, with 1.4/1.5" throat. An 1.4/1.5" throat should (in a well-designed horn) yield better and more consistent directivity all the way up. And a large format driver can be crossed low enough to comfortably integrate with the horn's woofers directly, eliminating the midranges. Best woud be Be offerings from Radian or TAD - or JBL that can be user upgraded with Truextent.

2. 80-100Hz is great. Below that, dedicated subwoofers is the best option anyway.

3. They really must be big, to give good directivity far down. 100x100 cm (or some more) is fine by me, if necessary.

4. Depends. A lot, if the performance is great.

5. Oh yes.


Best,
Espen
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:03 PM   #12
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
I understand your interest in the specifics, but unfortunately you're a little wide of the mark. You probably haven't seen a K-402 up close: wood isn't a panacea, and in this case would not be the material of choice. But I appreciate your interest in trying to guess the direction this might take.
Then I hope the solution you have in mind won't be as expensive as Paul Spencer's PSE144 as historically anything not made of wood has been very costly.

Quote:
How about providing your own preferences to the posed questions...including all others here in read-only mode reading this. The purpose of this thread is to gather user preferences on full-range MEH design...not so much guessing the outcome. Everyone benefits from the data exchange on preferences, needs, and constraints. Please share your needs and constraints.
I think that your way of going about a Synergy has a lot of merit but for now my preference is not for a 2" CD and 15" woofers which is why I didn't post them. Your first reply made that quite clear.

Quote:
I'd like to re-emphasize a point on size: it's not about the size of the horn itself but rather the size of the entire assembly with integral LF performance (i.e., no other horns or direct radiating woofers). I think some people might be thinking about an MEH + bass bin like the other 3-way "full range" MEHs that really aren't full range. That isn't the case here. Think in terms of the total loudspeaker envelope, not horn size.
Spoken like a man who has had big horns for over 10 years I find that I can go taller in a speaker but struggle to go wider. If I could put them in the corners like you then the width would be less of an issue.

My comments were meant to be helpful but it seems like they weren't.
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:23 PM   #13
56oval is offline 56oval  Australia
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Originally Posted by fluid View Post
Then I hope the solution you have in mind won't be as expensive as Paul Spencer's PSE144 as historically anything not made of wood has been very costly.
Hi fluid

Theres a number of reasons why Paul's PSE's aren't the cheapest out there .Cad work required , cost of mold's/cnc machining and theres 2 mold's to make one PSE . Guarantee tolerance on multiple pairs . The fit and finish of the glass work and the cost of manufacturing in Australia .

Cheers
Mal
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:48 PM   #14
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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All true and if you have the money to spend I am sure they are excellent, I only said that they were expensive and they are which limits the chances of more people being able to afford them.

Another thing I am sorry to have mentioned in this thread
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:55 PM   #15
nc535 is offline nc535
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A fully horn loaded full range speaker would have to have a truly large single horn or perhaps a moderately large Synergy horn sitting inside, above, or between split horn paths of a bass horn or between vertically separated direct radiators.

The crossover between the Synergy and the bass system has a major effect on the floor and ceiling boundary interference problems that will be incurred, so should be chosen carefully. Pursue this and you will have to trade horizontal pattern control below some frequency for vertical pattern control.

Celestion's new axidriver CD allows one to do a 300 Hz up horn that isn't Synergy or multiple entry. The key is access to that driver and a good horn to put it on. Autotech makes 32" SEOS that might be adaptable to this. More options are available if multiple entrance isn't required.

I've never heard horn bass for the lowest octaves so perhaps I'm wrong about this. I would use a number of 15" sealed slot loaded woofers for 300 Hz and down. At least two, perhaps four. Cone motion would be less than for any remotely practical bass horn, efficiency at least as good, and physical volume lower. One 15" driver with corner loading is shown to be about good enough in my corner Synergies, two would be awesome, four might be desired if corners aren't available. Of course subs can be brought at some point to make things easier or cheaper.

I could go with something as large as a K-402 in the corners but out in the room they would put even me off. If I were doing something commercial I would go limit it to 24" or so wide, perhaps a SEOS24. I think market size shrinks as the solution gets larger. 24" with absorption at the first reflection points and vertically separated dual bass subsystem for vertical pattern control might be a very good compromise.
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:57 PM   #16
56oval is offline 56oval  Australia
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Originally Posted by fluid View Post
All true and if you have the money to spend I am sure they are excellent, I only said that they were expensive and they are which limits the chances of more people being able to afford them.

Another thing I am sorry to have mentioned in this thread
Mate I'm not having a go .

Like you said once you move away from , mdf , ply and move to more complex shapes things can just get out of hand .

Cheers
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Old 28th April 2017, 03:40 PM   #17
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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As you might know, the tolerance requirements based on acoustics loosen up as you move away from the throat of the horn--tolerances measured in large fractions of a millimeter at the throat, but loosen up considerably at the mouth. Most horn manufacturers seem to lose track of that, but it's extremely important to note that symmetry relative to the central axis becomes much more important as you move toward the mouth of the horn, not so much accuracy of volume expansion or surface flatness that's required toward the mouth.

And I agree, the high costs of that product you mention appear to be either self-inflicted or someone is making a god-awful profit per horn. I tend to believe the former cause. Choice of manufacturing method and material can drive costs up by a factor of ten at the drop of a hat. Using 3D scanners, 3D printers (for production) or stereo lithography (for prototyping), and CNC is a good way to allow your costs to go out of sight instantly. I know these issues first hand--having spent the bulk of my career in defense and national lab engineering.

The challenge is to not allow that to occur. But there are very effective ways to make sure that doesn't happen and to produce a product that is the same quality acoustically and visually...perhaps even better visually, in fact.

Chris
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Old 28th April 2017, 03:58 PM   #18
56oval is offline 56oval  Australia
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Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
The challenge is to not allow that to occur. But there are very effective ways to make sure that doesn't happen and to produce a product that is the same quality acoustically and visually...perhaps even better visually, in fact.

Chris
Hi Chris

Looking forward reading how you go about it . Even the one off diy job's cost can blow out so easy .

Cheers
Mal
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Old 28th April 2017, 04:37 PM   #19
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Yea, I understand the cost sensitivity...that's why I put it in the list of questions, above.

Just to put your fears at rest a bit: the K-402 horn, as a point of departure (albeit not as complex to make as an MEH) is about a metre wide, by 2/3 metre tall, by a half metre in depth. The horn version that I prefer is 25 pounds in weight (11.3 kg)...while the MEH version would be much heavier. Its replacement cost from the manufacturer is $285(US) with their profit thrown in. (They won't sell it to you in horn-only form unless replacing a damaged horn.) And that company historically puts 100% markup on everything based on their cost, including overhead costs of a big company.

That's a significant fraction of the price of an "MEH kit", isn't it? You supply the drivers...or perhaps they're in the kit. The horn is the most difficult part of the problem.

When you consider that plywood or good quality MDF in flat form would be a significant fraction of that cost in raw material, I think you'll see that there is a solution path available that's probably affordable--even for you poor guys living in the land of Oz (a term of endearment as a native Texan living on early retirement pension...who understands value).

Chris
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Old 28th April 2017, 06:07 PM   #20
GM is offline GM  United States
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Yeah, this is the crux of the matter, size and cost Vs desired BW, and why when I've 'daydreamed' doing a 'full range' ~40-20 kHz Synergy concept for DIYers and also living on an early retirement pension and SS [huge 'hit' on both], it always wound up being a piezo HF, some reclaimed [analog] TV drivers [or suitable oval equivalent] and cheap 12" woofers 4th or 6th order BP loaded via a conical horn and large reflex or sealed back box, using multiple fine slits to cover the necessarily large mids cutouts required to get a high enough HF XO point to minimize reflections back to the throat, i.e. basically an 'el cheapo' modern day 'take' on a '40s era Altec small cinema two way horn system.

GM
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