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Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
Full-Range Synergy Kit Questions
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Old 6th April 2018, 10:39 AM   #141
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cask05 View Post
The next in line that I've personally heard would be a properly EQed (and perhaps bi-amped) BMS 4592ND dual diaphragm driver (i.e., the full 2" throat model).
Hi again Chris,

Concerning the BMS drivers. I have actually had a pair of the BMS 4592ND coax drivers, but I never managed to get them to sound right (to much sibilance...), but that may indeed have been due to lacking crossover skills on my side...

IF you consider these, I will recommend looking into BMS' new HE (High End) versions of these drivers, which should be considerably improved. The downside is, that the none of the new HE drivers have 2" throats (well there is one, but it only goes to 8k). So in that case a 1.4"/2" adaptor would be needed.

NEW HIGH END COMPRESSION DRIVERS

Best regards
Peter
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Old 6th April 2018, 11:28 AM   #142
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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The crossover of the BMS 4592ND is the problem that must be EQed properly. My default approach is to use DSP crossovers (Xilica, EV, Yamaha) to solve that problem. Sibilance is in the 4-8 kHz region, and if you don't correct for the hump in response in the tweeter at 7.5 kHz, you're going to hear it a lot. I'm also not sure what the relative phase is between the midrange and tweeter diaphragms at the 2" driver exit--it may need to be time aligned (i.e., I don't have the data). It's pretty straightforward to do that using a DSP crossover.

BMS 4592ND FR HD.PNG

If all of this is too much to digest for your uses, or you're trying to use passive networks only with no correcting PEQs upstream, then I'd not recommend the BMS 4592ND. I'd probably try the Radian Be or some other driver instead.

As far as the Truextent Be "replacement" diaphragms--it's generally hit or miss as far as I can tell. All of the JBL drivers not designed for Be diaphragms seem to have varying difficulties making full use of them. That's all I'm saying. It's personal choice in terms of how much non-optimality is acceptable in using Be for the particular JBL driver model used.

Better is better but the Be diaphragms are not cheap and if I were going to pay the price again, I'd want to get as much as I could out of them.

Chris
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Old 6th April 2018, 12:36 PM   #143
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Hi again Chris,

Thanks a lot for another detailed and helpful reply - I really appreciate it!

Best regards
Peter
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Old 6th April 2018, 12:52 PM   #144
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Thanks tmuikku! I understand about the assurances on a DIY MEH kit working as advertised. Most hobbyists wanting to tinker usually want the price to be extremely low.

The loudspeaker kit(s) that would result from the current effort in this thread would rather be in the category of "less tinkering...more hi-fi" than those other non-full-range MEH projects more typically discussed in threads here. The notion of a horn-loaded full range loudspeaker of the MEH type really is the driving idea here. There still are those readers that tend to confuse this idea with the other types of DIY MEHs found elsewhere on diyAudio. I find that the concept of a "full range MEH" can actually overlap the idea of a full-range direct radiating driver, of which we have an entire diyAudio forum dedicated to that purpose. So your comments about looking for a horn-loaded alternative to those designs is well founded here--even more so if you consider that the frequency response might extend down to 30 Hz or so and be much like a coaxial direct radiating full range driver in terms of its capabilities, albeit without the limitations of modulation distortion, compression distortion and the inabilities of controlling its polar coverage vs. frequency down to a truly useful frequency (about 100 Hz) that direct radiating drivers have.

I believe that those other MEH projects, e.g., "small syns" are excellent ones, but my personal needs are to avoid direct radiating woofers that have directivity issues below 400-500 Hz, as well as 10-25 dB higher levels of modulation distortion sidebands than good horn-loaded ones. This is horn-loading to the extent possible using MEH-type approaches.

[Note that the word "Synergy" is copyrighted by Danley Sound Labs in context of their MEHs and I try to respect that by not using that designation for my DIY efforts. Besides, most of their IP is really in the passive crossovers, of which I can see no one on diyAudio trying to replicate for their DIY MEH projects.]

As far as your comments concerning "profit", I'm not sure what has been written in this thread that triggered that response. The real bottleneck that I see currently is full-range MEH loudspeaker horns that don't require significant modification from their as-bought condition to make them useful for MEH operation. To do that, a significant investment in the stuff to make the horns is required--several thousand dollars for each horn design. Is anyone else planning to do that (that I'm not already aware of)?

I need five horns for my listening room of the K-402 size. After that, my needs are satisfied. The mold itself will remain for others to enjoy the same resulting horn for their DIY projects. It would be nice if some of the cost of that mold is amortized in the price of the resulting horns that could be sold "at cost". This makes it much easier to justify to my significant other to do other MEH-type horn designs for their needs. It's not a small effort to do these horns, as it turns out.

Other horn sizes and shapes will also need their own investment in the molds. No one is "making money" in the current concept. I assume that you can see that.

If I later were to offer full-up MEH loudspeakers or screw-together-and-plugin MEHs, then that looks like a profit making exercise. Those loudspeakers would be for those without the time and/or expertise to build their own, and I believe it would be fair to expect some profit for the time spent on delivering those recurring efforts for each customer.

Chris
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:02 AM   #145
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Default Regarding the Crites woofers

Hi Chris,

I hope this project is still alive:-).

I have a few questions regarding the Crites casted fra woofers you are using, that I hope you will respond to:

1. I understand that with a pair of these woofers for each horn you get a response down to around 30 Hz. How large a box for the pair do you need to get such a response? (I ask because the Klipsch mid-box you seem to use seem smaller that I would expect from simulations based on the T/S parameters from the 'large-Vas' Crites woofers.

2. Have you tried other 15" candidate woofers and are the Crites woofers on par with, for instance, Faital 15PR400 or AE TD15H? (On this side of the Atlantic, I have never seen a pair of the Crites woofers, but the specs look great, and the price seems very reasonable!)

Thanks a lot!

Best regards
Peter
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:07 PM   #146
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Thanks for the bump, Peter. The project is still alive and progressing, albeit a little slower than I'd envisioned. I hope to see a new horn this spring based on the second mold configuration.

The Crites woofers are good candidates based on their relatively low Fc and their mid-to-low Qts for horn loading--like the venerable K-33 from Klipsch. But there are many other woofers that work about as well in a DSP crossover environment. A notional Hornresp model for trying out different woofers for a K-402 sized horn configuration can be found here.

The box that I'm using is a modified Klipsch KPT-305. I would add sufficient internal damping material and perhaps a little stiffening (although this isn't nearly as critical as the horn itself being stiff) to keep internal reflections down to a reasonable level.

Chris
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Old 12th January 2019, 04:56 PM   #147
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Hi Chris,

Thanks, that sounds very interesting indeed! Is the up-coming horn based on the K-402 or a different design, and do you have any idea about the app. cost for this horn?

One Q about the Crites woofers: Am I correct that the Crites woofers are 4 Ohm, and if 'yes', do you wire these in parallel, and what is then the lowest impedance the amp sees?

Thanks again!!


Best regards
Peter
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Old 12th January 2019, 05:20 PM   #148
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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I don't have such specifics on the costs yet. That usually comes after producing more than one or two pieces successfully to fully understand their manufacturability.

The weight of the second version of the K-402 is 25 pounds. The third version of the K-402 that Klipsch is now selling has reduced that weight further to 15 pounds--which is really too light for a full-range MEH. The MEH (the horn portion) will probably be in the 35-45 pound (16-20 kg) regime. You can guesstimate the raw material costs based on weight (similar to the PRICE parametric cost estimating tool's methodology) and the prices that Klipsch sells them for (replacement horns only). Complexity of the MEH is a bit higher than the basic K-402--i.e., it's really not a K-402 but rather a full-range MEH.

The initial shape of the horn will be more based on the K-402, but I expect variations to appear fairly soon after getting the initial recipe on making such large one-piece horns.

I use two Crites 15" woofers in series on the MEH (i.e., 8 ohms nominal input impedance). Input power and/or sensitivity is not an issue in my experience since I'm bi-amping using a DSP crossover.

Chris

Last edited by Cask05; 12th January 2019 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:11 PM   #149
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Thanks a lot for all your elaborated relies, Chris!

I really hope the project will indeed materialize.

Best regards
Peter
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