These drivers probably don't exist, but the peerless india looks "interesting"
http://www.peerlessaudio.com/uploadfiles/pdf/3in dome midrange.pdf
Ultimate Gothia 3 - 3 inch midrange speaker
"Unfortunately, this will only lead to frustration." well yes and no, it is easy enough to do and sound will come out, and maybe even an attempt at identifying "dynamics" could be possible, and in my fantasy reality I was hoping to find a driver that was "similar"...
my fantasy reality is feeling a little tattered at the moment however. I think I am now open to suggestions in the 3-4 inch cone type driver too. the Peerless NE123W-08 is looking the most promising so far
http://www.peerlessaudio.com/uploadfiles/pdf/3in dome midrange.pdf
Ultimate Gothia 3 - 3 inch midrange speaker
"Unfortunately, this will only lead to frustration." well yes and no, it is easy enough to do and sound will come out, and maybe even an attempt at identifying "dynamics" could be possible, and in my fantasy reality I was hoping to find a driver that was "similar"...
my fantasy reality is feeling a little tattered at the moment however. I think I am now open to suggestions in the 3-4 inch cone type driver too. the Peerless NE123W-08 is looking the most promising so far
10 inch woofer selection help please
Proceeding at a traditional snails pace I have selected for my own idiosyncratic reasons, a tweeter and a mid for the project.
These are:
Monacor DT-350NF
Dayton Audio RS52AN-8
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments.
The considerations included no ferro fluid in the tweet, built in metal grills, metal dome with fabric surround. All properties shared with the NS1000 drivers (unless i am mistaken).
Seeing as I am happy for this speaker to be a bit smaller than the NS1000, I am looking at 10 inch bass drivers. I feel a bit stuck however, there are many (car) subs, but I feel like I need a more old school style driver with a floppy suspension, and reasonable efficiency.
Using the methodology above I found and purchased a Soundlab L035 10 Inch Bass Chassis Speaker 8 Ohm 100W. It has a lowish resonant frequency of 35 Hz and a reasonably chunky magnet, paper cone etc. It feels like it could be a nice driver but is not quite mechanically "loose" enough, It feels a bit constricted, and does not seem to have sufficient extension, please excuse my subjective evaluation. Will get my microphone rig running soon...
For this project I would like to purchase reasonable cost new drivers, rather than recycle old quasi unobtainium. I do have some old drivers lying around I could evaluate however:
Wharfdale Glendale 3 cast frame woofers
goodmans old mezzo
Beovox 5700
Volt B220 old one
random pro drivers
I think part of my problem is that a lot of drivers are designed wit bass reflex in mind and I really don't want to go down that path.
So If anyone knows of a reasonably priced (£50 in the uk) but could stretch for the perfect driver, of a 10 or maybe 12 inch driver that would work well in a sealed box a little smaller than the ns1000, I would like to know...
I am not after ultimate extension, even the ns1000s are happier with a sub.
Proceeding at a traditional snails pace I have selected for my own idiosyncratic reasons, a tweeter and a mid for the project.
These are:
Monacor DT-350NF
Dayton Audio RS52AN-8
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments.
The considerations included no ferro fluid in the tweet, built in metal grills, metal dome with fabric surround. All properties shared with the NS1000 drivers (unless i am mistaken).
Seeing as I am happy for this speaker to be a bit smaller than the NS1000, I am looking at 10 inch bass drivers. I feel a bit stuck however, there are many (car) subs, but I feel like I need a more old school style driver with a floppy suspension, and reasonable efficiency.
Using the methodology above I found and purchased a Soundlab L035 10 Inch Bass Chassis Speaker 8 Ohm 100W. It has a lowish resonant frequency of 35 Hz and a reasonably chunky magnet, paper cone etc. It feels like it could be a nice driver but is not quite mechanically "loose" enough, It feels a bit constricted, and does not seem to have sufficient extension, please excuse my subjective evaluation. Will get my microphone rig running soon...
For this project I would like to purchase reasonable cost new drivers, rather than recycle old quasi unobtainium. I do have some old drivers lying around I could evaluate however:
Wharfdale Glendale 3 cast frame woofers
goodmans old mezzo
Beovox 5700
Volt B220 old one
random pro drivers
I think part of my problem is that a lot of drivers are designed wit bass reflex in mind and I really don't want to go down that path.
So If anyone knows of a reasonably priced (£50 in the uk) but could stretch for the perfect driver, of a 10 or maybe 12 inch driver that would work well in a sealed box a little smaller than the ns1000, I would like to know...
I am not after ultimate extension, even the ns1000s are happier with a sub.
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IMO 40 litres is the absolute minimum you should consider. I recommend having a look at modelling a few drivers to see how they do vs volume-compromised enclosures (I would consider 40l a compromise). You can then make a decision that won't limit your choices should you later decide to try out a different driver.
I've used the RS52AN with Peerless ring radiators, and, of all things, some GRS polycone 10" woofers, with pretty great results in sealed 2ft3 boxes.
They are high qts, well suited to sealed enclosures, go as high as 3000 hertz, adequately,and do very well from 35 hz - 800 hertz. You'd need L pads on tweeters and mids though.
I got mine on sale for $10 each, plus shipping 5 years ago, and they still work well to whom I sold tge speakers to.
Just a few general observations from Martin Colloms book on High Performance Loudspeakers. In the section on mid-range drivers he discusses the relative merits of domes and cones. A couple of things I remember are that at higher frequencies cones can have better dispersion than a notionally smaller dome because the radiating surface of a 4" unit will tend to be generated from the apex near the voice coil (1" or less) where the radiating surface may be of smaller diameter than the surface of say a 2" dome. He notes that dome mids can have a surprisingly restricted upper range. This was true of the very nice Philips 2" dome-mids from 40 yrs ago. Only one out of several models they made (both cloth and card) really went much over 5k. But he concluded that a good dome can approach ELS transparency.......if I recall correctly. There may be more in the later editions. Mine was a first ed. from the later '70's.
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more things to consider. I have looked at the box size, with the smaller box there seems to be a boost of about 1 dB at 60 Hz. I presume that would not be enough to make it sound boomy? I am having a little pause at the moment whilst I sort out some other things....
That GRS driver looks good, especialy for the price you can get it for. does not seem quite such a bargain after shiping and import duties in the UK. never mind, will keep an eye open just incase I ever feel like doing a slot loaded sub...
That also looks like a nice set of deiver for more efficiency Faital pro, not heard of that one.
Martin Colloms, he would not be allowed to criticise the NS1000, would he... I have a pair of old Quad 57s in the corner of my office awaiting resuscitation. Then I will be able to amuse my self for years performing comparative reviews.....
That GRS driver looks good, especialy for the price you can get it for. does not seem quite such a bargain after shiping and import duties in the UK. never mind, will keep an eye open just incase I ever feel like doing a slot loaded sub...
That also looks like a nice set of deiver for more efficiency Faital pro, not heard of that one.
Martin Colloms, he would not be allowed to criticise the NS1000, would he... I have a pair of old Quad 57s in the corner of my office awaiting resuscitation. Then I will be able to amuse my self for years performing comparative reviews.....
I'm using a Dayton 2" Aluminum dome midrange, and from 600-5000 hertz, it compares very favourably with my elecrostatic 505 mini panels. Plus they're better off axis, and efficient enough to play with some 98db/db Celestion 15" woofers.
This makes them as loud as I wish, with a 7 watt single ended amp.
It lives, after a fashion... and even better I have a microphone hooked up for the first time in 5 years. yippee. so running with a citronic active eq, and a chip amp (goodmans), quick adjust of the crossover points and there it is. early days. I love the peerless woofer, but am keen to hear the leaner presentation of the earlier one again now that I have knobs to adjust.
the 1.5k dip is an artifact.
the 1.5k dip is an artifact.
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I have put the Soundlab woofer back now and the first thing i noticed is that it is about the same efficiency as the mid and tweet. but no bass, but what is is fast and tight. I have become one with the idea of baffle step compensation however (at last) so i need about 6 dBs worth. which as it happens I could replicate with an inductor I had lying around.
I have had several attempts at doing the crossover in the active knob crossover, as a sanity check I tried putting a pulse waveform through each individual driver. see pics below, the one with a lot of ringing is the mid, it is around 14kHz. also quite lot of breakup from the woofer. I think I can hear some muddle in the mid, but am avoiding it at present with the cross over. am quite encouraged that the drivers responses look like they are pretty complementary.
The Holm impulse is my latest attempt with passive eq on the bass. it is gradually sounding better, and I can hear elements of the overall sound I would like to achieve but the drivers at present are really not integrating very well. but dynamics and transients and speed are present, and also a degree of sustain?, the treble in particular sounds quite free and un suppressed, and may be a little zingy.
I have had several attempts at doing the crossover in the active knob crossover, as a sanity check I tried putting a pulse waveform through each individual driver. see pics below, the one with a lot of ringing is the mid, it is around 14kHz. also quite lot of breakup from the woofer. I think I can hear some muddle in the mid, but am avoiding it at present with the cross over. am quite encouraged that the drivers responses look like they are pretty complementary.
The Holm impulse is my latest attempt with passive eq on the bass. it is gradually sounding better, and I can hear elements of the overall sound I would like to achieve but the drivers at present are really not integrating very well. but dynamics and transients and speed are present, and also a degree of sustain?, the treble in particular sounds quite free and un suppressed, and may be a little zingy.
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I found a couple of BBE Max-X3 active crossovers, which for me, solve integration issues, for regular, dynamic, and now electrostatic panels. Mine were found used, around 35% of retail, over about a 2 month period. They come with minimal bass and treble contouring, which simultaneously addresses phase angles, by altering the signal phase the amplifier sees.For bass, I do help them along with an inductor on the woofer.
One will do for 2 channels, you'd need 2 for three way active crossovers. I find them tremendously more transparent than passive crossovers, even with the modest,(vintage) amps I usually use. It's pretty great being able to adjust [by ear] crossover points and bass output and eq on the fly, to suit each speaker's boundary reinforcement, when the best placement isn't viable in a room. Just something you may wish to consider, now that you've done the heavy lifting in your speaker design.
The Visaton Casablanca IV kit speaker seems to be closer in type to the NS1000 than anything else.Would be worth a try and all the design work is done.
Or just buy a pair of NS75Ts which are very similar to NS1000s without the things that are really annoying[ poor image depth and that dry/overdamped bass].
Or just buy a pair of NS75Ts which are very similar to NS1000s without the things that are really annoying[ poor image depth and that dry/overdamped bass].
Progress update. This project has been suffering a lack of enthusiasm for a number of reasons, primarily that it quite easy to get it to measure OK, but didn't sound good enough to get excited about. Now I am new to the active DSP side of things, but I have realised that the main factor that may be in my way are the amplifier I have been using, and to a lesser extent the crossover. I don't get chip amps, but so many other people do, that I am all ways ready to give them another chance. I have been using a 4 channel chip amp. I have another speaker project (2 way) on the go, and swapped over to this, the chip amp sounds bad. Substituting in my no feedback class A amp was a big improvement, and now I can hear the Behringer crossover, it is not to bad, but definitely there, bit disappointing really.
The other problem I have is aesthetics. I originally wanted them to look a bit like NS1000s, but I have learnt some basic CAD (again) and could not get the look I like. That, and I am constantly haunted by this picture (from audiokarma). I know it is not a stock Dovedale, (I have 2 pairs) but this is some kind of optical illusion, however I really like the way it looks, that and my inability to find a 19mm metal dome tweeter that keeps the relative proportions of the NS1000 mid /tweeter, I think they are going to end up looking a bit like some 70's Wharfedales.
On the bass driver dilemma, I now have a pair of Volt B250s (retired from some IAS Beaulieu speakers). Continuing my own idiosyncratic driver choice methodology, they look very much like smaller versions of the Yamaha driver, and can be had with a built in metal grill, and like the Yamaha driver, recommended to be mounted in a larger reflex box than the one I want to build. I can feel a speaker building / testing time coming on, but I am currently fixing up all my half dead amplifiers, but that will be done soon......
The other problem I have is aesthetics. I originally wanted them to look a bit like NS1000s, but I have learnt some basic CAD (again) and could not get the look I like. That, and I am constantly haunted by this picture (from audiokarma). I know it is not a stock Dovedale, (I have 2 pairs) but this is some kind of optical illusion, however I really like the way it looks, that and my inability to find a 19mm metal dome tweeter that keeps the relative proportions of the NS1000 mid /tweeter, I think they are going to end up looking a bit like some 70's Wharfedales.
On the bass driver dilemma, I now have a pair of Volt B250s (retired from some IAS Beaulieu speakers). Continuing my own idiosyncratic driver choice methodology, they look very much like smaller versions of the Yamaha driver, and can be had with a built in metal grill, and like the Yamaha driver, recommended to be mounted in a larger reflex box than the one I want to build. I can feel a speaker building / testing time coming on, but I am currently fixing up all my half dead amplifiers, but that will be done soon......
