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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

For 0, can anything beat Pyle PH612 + JBL 2408H-1?
For 0, can anything beat Pyle PH612 + JBL 2408H-1?
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Old 14th January 2019, 11:59 AM   #11
mortron is offline mortron  Canada
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What are some comparables to the 2408h-1? Is there a celestion driver that compares?

I wish they were still $60 lol
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Old 14th January 2019, 12:17 PM   #12
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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The Eminence ring radiator looks nice, but I haven't tried it. There's a review posted at Voice Coil Magazine.
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Old 14th January 2019, 12:25 PM   #13
CharlieLaub is offline CharlieLaub  United States
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Your frequency response data for the JBL CD look nice but that is just one aspect of its performance.

I would never choose a driver based on frequency response alone and I would very much like to see any comparisons include the HD and IMD profiles for driver+horn combinations. It's "fairest" to do this when they are EQd to have about the same frequency response, and tested at the same SPL, but that is probably asking too much. CD+horn can have rather inferior distortion performance compared to home audio, e.g. dome, radiators...
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:12 PM   #14
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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@CharlieLaub: Yes, I agree, the response is just one of a bunch of parameters you'd have to look onto.

The Eminence N151M-8 was measured on audioXpress. It was used on the Eminence SST1 horn. The SST1 is identical to the MRH-83 except for the driver mount (screw on vs. bolt). I've used the Monacor one a few times, it opens fast and is not particular critical to different drivers. The measurement on the Eminence SST1 horn show some issues however, the angle measurements show a deep dive of ~17dB above 13kHz under angles. The 120dB harmonics distortion measurement looks very good (medium K2, very low K3, THD got a peak at 3,5kHz though but at 120dB that's still fine), the decay too, so it's likely not a resonance of the ring membrane but an interference on the driver exit horn throat. That hints the driver might be picky regarding the choice of the horn. The driver is reasonable priced, so it might be worth a try nevertheless.

At around the same price you can get the Celestion CDX1-1747, which was also reviewed by audioXpress. The burst decay of the eminence is a tad cleaner, the radiation of the Celestion much more uniform, it's a different horn though. The driver behaves uncritical regarding the choice of the horn and sounds excellent, very detailed. For HiFi it's often used at 1kHz or even 800Hz. For PA use I'd recommend a higher crossover frequency though.
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Old 14th January 2019, 07:36 PM   #15
etalon90 is offline etalon90  Canada
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I own the N151m and it's mounted on JMLC 2000hz from Autotech

If you want me to do measurement, just ask me what you wish to see and I'll do them.

If any interest, I also own:
Celestion- CDX1-1425 on custom 2000hz JMLC (start with a negative 6degree angle)
BMS 4526 on 2000hz JMLC (still fairly new, is there is such thing of burn-in in CD?)
Celestion CDX1-1445 on FaitalPro short 1" horn
Later
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Old 15th January 2019, 04:51 AM   #16
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieLaub View Post
Your frequency response data for the JBL CD look nice but that is just one aspect of its performance.

I would never choose a driver based on frequency response alone and I would very much like to see any comparisons include the HD and IMD profiles for driver+horn combinations. It's "fairest" to do this when they are EQd to have about the same frequency response, and tested at the same SPL, but that is probably asking too much. CD+horn can have rather inferior distortion performance compared to home audio, e.g. dome, radiators...
My primary motivation was that the JBL compression driver combined with a clone of the JBL horn just worked so darn well. At the time that I posted the thread, the combo cost about $75.

It was just kinda depressing seeing people use a titanium Selenium compresssion driver on a clone of a JBL horn, when the combo of JBL + JBL just worked so much better.

I'd argue that there are very few compression drivers that can outperform this combo above 10khz, at any price. Even the JBL M2 starts to narrow at ultra high frequency. Voishvillo did really nice work here.

Click the image to open in full size.

HARMAN Innovator Spotlight: Alexander Voishvillo, JBL Loudspeakers – HARMAN Professional Solutions Insights

In the pic, the JBL 2408H-1 is there on his desk, alongside the D2-2430K. They're kissing cousins.

And to clarify:

When I saw "it performs well" I mean "it's directivity is really really good." I'm from The School of Geddes, I'm a lot more concerned about directivity than harmonic distortion. Plus, these are professional compression drivers, it's not like we're going to push them hard when we're playing them in a living room.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 15th January 2019 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 27th January 2019, 01:52 AM   #17
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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One of the issues with a lot of the measurements that I made, particularly before 2017, was that I would move the microphone from left to right as I measured the loudspeaker.

So the *angles* were correct, but the distance from the loudspeaker would grow.

For instance, if you measure a loudspeaker on axis, and then you measure it 45 degrees off axis by moving one meter to the LEFT, you will now be 41.4% further away than the first measurement.

Click the image to open in full size.

This measurement was made that way. You can see it in the measurement; as the wavefronts become spherical because the waveguide can no longer control directivity, the SPL level starts to fall off with distance. (See what's going on below 2khz?)

Click the image to open in full size.

Today I re-ran that measurement with the following improvements:

1) measurement distance is two meters instead of one

2) The distance from microphone to speaker is equidistant at every measurement point. IE, the mic is like spokes on a bicycle wheel, each measurement changes in angle but not in distance.

3) I made a half-assed attempt to EQ the speaker flat

Anyways, hope that helps. I still think the combo of JBL 2408H-1 plus a PT waveguide or one of it's clones is pretty darn special. This performance is very good; note how the shape of the response doesn't change as you move around, it just gets quieter as you get off-axis. Very nice if you're setting up a system like Geddes recommends, with the loudspeakers cross-fired. The response curve isn't *perfectly* flat, but I didn't even put this waveguide on a baffle, this is a naked waveguide measured two meters above the ground. On a baffle, it will perform even better.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 27th January 2019 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 16th May 2019, 07:55 PM   #18
mortron is offline mortron  Canada
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How does the 2408 H1 and the H2 differ? I cannot seem to find anything on it. Trying to pick a HF section for a build and considered these on the Pyle/Dayton.
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Old 12th October 2019, 01:45 PM   #19
mortron is offline mortron  Canada
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Patrick,

Any chance you've had the opportunity to try the H2 and get some measurements? I'm looking for a good 1" CD and am trying to ascertain if this or one of the Peerless CDs are worth grabbing. Thanks
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:12 PM   #20
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Someone would have to ask Voishvillo that question (he designed them) but here's my guess:

1) the original ring radiators from the Voishvillo patent were drivers like the BMS 4550. A ferrite ring radiator, used on the Danley SH50, came out something like fifteen years ago. As legend has it, there was a designer at Yorkville who selected the BMS 4550 for his Unity horn, and Danley was impressed with it's performance, and then used it in the Sound Physics Labs "SPL Runt." IIRC, that was the 2nd Unity horn with a ring radiator, the Yorkville U15 was first. I am not aware of any Cerwin Vega speakers that use a ring radiator, even though it's their patent. I have no idea if Voishvillo designed the 4550. The technology is definitely from the same patent, I don't know if BMS owns or licenses it.

2) JBL then licensed the ring radiator patent. That led to a flurry of ring radiators, about twelve years back, from JBL. Of the top of my head, I recall that some of the JBL drivers were made in Germany. Do the math, and it's fairly clear that JBL was simply selling BMS ring radiators with JBL labels on them. The BMS 4540ND is an obvious example of this, there's a JBL model that's practically the same thing. I'm too lazy to look up which one.

3) Fourteen years ago, Voishvillo went to work for JBL, and that's when we started to see a bunch of innovations in the ring radiator design. In particular, new phase plugs and the dual ring radiator used in the Vertec line and the JBL M2.

There's been a consistent series of innovations in these drivers. If I take apart my 4540NDs, *externally* they look similar to my JBL 2408H-1, but internally they're very different.

At the same time, there's been obvious cost-cutting. The 2408H-1 is made in Mexico.

They've been shrinking it down; the 2409H is about half the volume of the 2408H-1.

This is a really long winded way of saying "I don't know what the specific differences are between a 2408H-1 and 2408H-2." They're definitely different.

To me, it looks like a cost cutting measure. There's a LOT of neodymium in a 2408H-1. I paid something like $80 for my 2408H-2, but it's about as big and complex as my BMS 4552, which retail for $250.

Obviously, Samsung is a bean counter, there's going to be an effort to get the cost of these things down. But they're also an innovator. It's safe to say that the two are different.

But all of them are very very good, it really just boils down to "how high and how low do I want to play, how much can I afford, and how loud do I need to get."

If the build quality on the Eminence ring radiators is acceptable, those are CLEARLY the screaming deal right now. They appear to be very much like the BMS 4552 for less than half the cost. BMS is made in Germany, I'm assuming the N151M is made at Eminence Dongguan in China.

Side note : the Peerless is a completely different animal than any of these ring radiators. The Peerless is basically the "goto" compression driver if you need wide bandwidth for a reasonable price. Ring radiators generally can't play as low, but they excel at playing out to 16khz and beyond. To my ears, the Peerless sounds comparable to a DE250.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 12th October 2019 at 09:15 PM.
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