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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 2nd March 2017, 06:32 PM   #21
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplesset View Post
Better than "have to" compensate for sensitivities, it becomes trivial to do so, and becomes part of setting the crossover up. Gain controls are going to be in your amps or your crossovers or if DSP, integral in the crossover. Don't be afraid of DSP, it makes your job so much easier to get the sound you want.
Phase2. Or not. Hmm.
*considering*
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Old 2nd March 2017, 06:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
This is just in case you're not familiar with this or if you have perhaps forgotten:

- 2 drivers in series gets you the same sensitivity as a single driver but impedance is doubled
- 2 drivers in parallel gets you a 6dB increase in sensitivity but a halving in impedance. This is why so many dual mids and dual woofers are wired in parallel. And because many (most?) amps today have no problem with a 4ohm load.

So just to double check - must you limit yourself to 8ohm driver loads?

Also, driver size is not necessarily the final arbiter of how low a woofer will play. Instead, it's a driver's combination of TS parameters that determine if it is more suitable to a closed or ported box and how low (F3/F6/F10) it will play in a given size box. Each driver needs to be simmed in a competent box modeling program, like Unibox (Excel required) or WinISD pro to know what it's going to do on the low end. You may find that defining your design F3 goal and your max woofer box size may help you in your woofer selection.
Thanks for this knowledge refreshment - apparently I knew it wrong then. I thought, any kind of doubling would increase sensi by 3dB not 6. So, thanks again, very valuable info

I actually don't stick to 8 Ohms, we can build 4 Ohm capable amps too, however except electrical parameters, wattage, power need etc. I don't know which nominal impedance setup is better in general or if there's a difference in sound quality at all (between 2 very identical 4 and 8 Ohm systems).
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Old 2nd March 2017, 06:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piersma View Post
Finished multi-amp project with amp modules and Linkwitz Riley filter
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Old 2nd March 2017, 06:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
Thanks for this knowledge refreshment - apparently I knew it wrong then. I thought, any kind of doubling would increase sensi by 3dB not 6. So, thanks again, very valuable info

I actually don't stick to 8 Ohms, we can build 4 Ohm capable amps too, however except electrical parameters, wattage, power need etc. I don't know which nominal impedance setup is better in general or if there's a difference in sound quality at all (between 2 very identical 4 and 8 Ohm systems).
Btw I'm not trying to make my bass section sound in LFE region below 20Hz but if I take one of my favorite songs from the less beloved pop industry, it's a shame that many audiophile grade speakers simply cannot reproduce these basses like they should. (Good example is again the Audio Note AN-J I listened to, it sounded amazing with the Eric Clapton unplugged LP but this Madonna album was quite weak at the bottom. Remarkably weak). This song is btw one of the most challenging ones IMO for bass sections: the smooth, fine, continuous bass tone has to come at all frequencies with the same power and tons of badly designed open boxes fail here due to wrong reflex port tuning etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4ChERg__G8
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Old 2nd March 2017, 07:10 PM   #25
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDM0yAJjlBo
At 0:56 and especially from 3:01 .. these should sound like smooth-beautiful soul touching earthshakes (cannot describe it better) ..

And here bass plays also a big role, flat response is key without peaks (and of course measurements are 1 thing and our ear's sensitivity is another) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEDvAGq2dEA

Anyway, bass is very crucial for me, right. I used WinISD several years ago, playing around with a Fostex FE208EZ driver (which I heard on the same setup like the AN-J-s, put into Jericho horn baffles - omg, sweet, loved that, except missing some highs).

I'll play around with the program again soon this weekend. Thanks for the remarks/tips.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 08:11 AM   #26
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Vortex, I tried to meet your stated goals.
BUT.... Read Geddes paper on controlled directivity, and share a look at designs which reduce room interaction with your Dad like Fusion-12 EconoWave and the larger Tweek Geeks BMF-1

*Avalon style low diffraction vertical baffle cabinet. Google: Avalon diy speaker images
*Tweeter Ribbon = Fountek Neo X3 (Rock&Roll durable, $110)
---(LR4 electrical at 1900Hz)
---(time delay Xover circuit)
*Midrange = 6" Satori MW16P-8 in sealed 0.5cuft volume ($130)
---(LR4 electrical at 1900Hz)
---(LR2 electrical at 190Hz since sealed alignment and baffle step will also attenuate)
---(time delay Xover circuit)
*Woofer = 12" Dayton DS315-8 in sealed 2cuft volume ($80)
---(BW3 electrical at 190Hz to attenuate any midrange grunge(reverse polarity))
---(include 20Hz Qtc=0.7 LinkWitz Transform bass boost crossover circuit)
---(include baffle step compensation Xover circuit)
---(explore room compensation circuit)

*Active crossovers cannot correct lobing from large Center-to-Center driver separations or baffle diffraction effects. This Avalon style cabinet is optimized for diffraction control. There are several diy-copy drawings on the web which you can give to the cabinet shop.
*WinISD plot for sealed Mid, and sealed Woof with 20Hz LinkWitz Transform provided to show good efficiency match.
=================
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

https://www.pinterest.com/localhifis...in-the-making/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Aval...w=1280&bih=654

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...ized-the-Dream
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:45 AM   #27
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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@ LineSource: thanks, great stuff !!!

About baffle: the only things I kept in mind until now:
- it should have no parallel walls at all
- voice coil planes should be vertically aligned when we look at their final position from the side
- white piano finish

You provided me quite some hints now. Still processing the info

Of course I'll have to take care about room resonance and reflection effects but I'm also trying to weaken reflections: I'll have big pictures on the walls, special ones: actually putting sound absorbing material into (onto?) the empty picture frame (2-4 cm thick) and then giving this damping thing a nice 1-layer white textile coating. I'll have some of my photos printed onto the textile material but I'm also thinking about simply having something abstract weaved into the textile itself, not clear yet. Anyway, my walls will be somewhat damped, at least a big proportion of them. Carpet is given (covering almost all space between TV and furniture), ceiling is naked but will remain naked for now, for the 1st try.

Anyway, I'm not a perfectionist (I lied now) but I'm happy to see couple of similar faces here who pay special attention to a bunch of parameters involved around audio. There's plenty of them to screw up a project completely.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:56 AM   #28
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Hah, those connecting aluminum rods in the second link's pictures.. very nice. I thought about something similar when building a big tall box but made of hard wood. Aluminum might be more rigid. Cool.

PS: anybody ever built any kind of separate box(es) out of hard concrete ? That must be stiffness omg
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Old 3rd March 2017, 11:04 AM   #29
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Off a little bit: N1: Perfekter Klang aus Beton-Boxen - DETAIL.de - das Architektur- und Bau-Portal - Concrete. (I see ScanSpeak Revelators here, tweeter too).
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:32 PM   #30
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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re: Perfekter Klang speaker......
Analog and digital electronic crossovers provide time delays which remove the need for a step-baffle. The edges on a step-baffle generate diffraction. When a sound wave reaches an edge(baffle or step-baffle) it "sprays" the energy in several different directions, often also generating odd angle wall reflections, and this confuses the soundstage location queues. Some room wall reflections might generate desirable ambience. The truncated pyramid Avalon cabinet's beveled edges generate a modest amount of randomized direction diffraction, dither, which some speaker experts believe can improve the listening experience in a home.

With "exceptional" recordings, large-radius(3"-6") edge treatments, like the Sound Physik Kronos or B&W sphere, can generate a more accurate soundstage reproduction than beveled-edge cabinets. One person's "accurate" is another person's "bland".

As expected, mitered bevels around the tweeter offer the most cost/work effective DIY cabinet construction benefits. If you need to reduce cabinet construction costs, you could explore these ideas.
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