I've been reading a bit about the benefits of going active and I'm looking into a more user friendly solution since I'm not that experienced.
First I want to experiment with my old Canton speakers and drive each driver with 1 amp removing the passive xover completely.
From what I understand there are more things the crossover will take care of besides splitting sound. Cabinet and driver related. The active xover should take care of those as well?
Room correction is something I really want since my room has a strong coloration and speaker/listening position is just a bit flexible.
I mostly listen to flacs using the pc as a source into a dac.
Is the minidsp DDRC-88A with dirac a good solution for what I need? At least for ~$1k
Am I on the right path or are there other (better) out there? Max budget being $1k but I wouldn't mind spending less.
Here are the speakers in question, and their crossovers:
For rooms up to: 55m²
Efficiency: 93.4 dB
Operating Power: 1.8 Watts (86dB, 3m distance)
Frequency response: 22 - 30,000 Hz
Beam angle: over 125 degrees at 12500 Hz
Transition ranges: 450 / 3,500 Hz
Impedance: 4 ohms
Any input is greatly apreciated.
First I want to experiment with my old Canton speakers and drive each driver with 1 amp removing the passive xover completely.
From what I understand there are more things the crossover will take care of besides splitting sound. Cabinet and driver related. The active xover should take care of those as well?
Room correction is something I really want since my room has a strong coloration and speaker/listening position is just a bit flexible.
I mostly listen to flacs using the pc as a source into a dac.
Is the minidsp DDRC-88A with dirac a good solution for what I need? At least for ~$1k
Am I on the right path or are there other (better) out there? Max budget being $1k but I wouldn't mind spending less.
Here are the speakers in question, and their crossovers:
For rooms up to: 55m²
Efficiency: 93.4 dB
Operating Power: 1.8 Watts (86dB, 3m distance)
Frequency response: 22 - 30,000 Hz
Beam angle: over 125 degrees at 12500 Hz
Transition ranges: 450 / 3,500 Hz
Impedance: 4 ohms
Any input is greatly apreciated.
Hi there! I just noticed this thread.
I really would suggest a better value / benefit would be to upgrade those capacitors, but if this is important for you as a learning experiment, try something less complicated.
I would suggest a hybrid approach rather than trying it all at once!
MiniDSP has combination 2-way plate amps like this one:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice125
with active crossovers and DSP correction. Leave the tweeter/midrange passive X over in place, and use the active for the mid to woofer filters. Replace any tweeter caps with Mundorf MKP's.
Best,
E
I really would suggest a better value / benefit would be to upgrade those capacitors, but if this is important for you as a learning experiment, try something less complicated.
I would suggest a hybrid approach rather than trying it all at once!
MiniDSP has combination 2-way plate amps like this one:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice125
with active crossovers and DSP correction. Leave the tweeter/midrange passive X over in place, and use the active for the mid to woofer filters. Replace any tweeter caps with Mundorf MKP's.
Best,
E
Hi, thanks for the response! I don't think I want to convert the speaker into a powered one but those amps do look great on paper. Going hybrid seems to be the smarter choice to begin with. Especially since for now I only have 2 amps available for this project. But what xover should I use in this case?
Replace all caps. I can see only 3 of them mounted...where is the 4th ??
Use much higher voltage for the tweeter ( 250 V ) and also for the midrange.
47 uF and 15 uF will be much larger than the original electrolityc ones.
well, you can keep the 120 uF and 47 uF with electrolityc dielectric.
Putting the crossover board ( or if you manage, point to point ) out of the box will bring a betterment, so you can start by now to bring the cables of each speaker out of the box.
The inductor on the "shunt side" of the midrange confuses me: I tried that type once but it's really nasty -it really blurs the signal ! But probably it doesn't make no harm in that point.
Use much higher voltage for the tweeter ( 250 V ) and also for the midrange.
47 uF and 15 uF will be much larger than the original electrolityc ones.
well, you can keep the 120 uF and 47 uF with electrolityc dielectric.
Putting the crossover board ( or if you manage, point to point ) out of the box will bring a betterment, so you can start by now to bring the cables of each speaker out of the box.
The inductor on the "shunt side" of the midrange confuses me: I tried that type once but it's really nasty -it really blurs the signal ! But probably it doesn't make no harm in that point.
The white item in lower left corner is actually a cap and not a resistor. It is a foil cap, my advice is to simply replace the other three electrolytic caps with equivalent ones (electrolytic), if they are, as I imagine, more than 10 year old. Non polar electrolytic caps are perfectly suited to a crossover, the only problem with them is that they age and change capacitance over time, so replacing them after some 10-15 years with new ones brings again the initial sonic character.
Ralf
Ralf
Dear Schneiderd,
What exactly are those benefits of going active, in case the passive x/o is properly designed?
In case the a passive x/o is not okay, redesign that.
@ Giralfino I must have been lucky. Many decent bipolars, that went through my hands, measured perfectly even after 25+ years.
Eelco
What exactly are those benefits of going active, in case the passive x/o is properly designed?
In case the a passive x/o is not okay, redesign that.
@ Giralfino I must have been lucky. Many decent bipolars, that went through my hands, measured perfectly even after 25+ years.
Eelco
C2/C4 are the critical one's.
C2 - Mundorf MKP or better.
C4 - Film would be ideal, but at 47uF it's rather large, so maybe bypass with small film cap (0.4 to 1 uF) instead. Otherwise, add up some Mundorf MKP!
C1 - Leave it alone, unless you can measure the ESR. Replacing this with low ESR caps without adjusting R1 can end up in weird territory where you inadvertently change the entire speaker impedance profile, and mess with the mid range response. If you CAN measure it, suggest a modern bi-polar with film bypass, and compensate with bigger R1. Otherwise, the step up is to go with a bunch of film. Axon is a great value, and relatively small so you may wish to consider them.
R3/R4 are in series with the drivers. Replace with Mills equivalent or greater wattage.
Best,
E
C2 - Mundorf MKP or better.
C4 - Film would be ideal, but at 47uF it's rather large, so maybe bypass with small film cap (0.4 to 1 uF) instead. Otherwise, add up some Mundorf MKP!
C1 - Leave it alone, unless you can measure the ESR. Replacing this with low ESR caps without adjusting R1 can end up in weird territory where you inadvertently change the entire speaker impedance profile, and mess with the mid range response. If you CAN measure it, suggest a modern bi-polar with film bypass, and compensate with bigger R1. Otherwise, the step up is to go with a bunch of film. Axon is a great value, and relatively small so you may wish to consider them.
R3/R4 are in series with the drivers. Replace with Mills equivalent or greater wattage.
Best,
E
@picowallspeaker @eriksquires
Many thanks for the info!
I've read on various forums people were raving on how much their system improved after going with a multiple amp and active xover setup. So I guess it got me convinced it is an "upgrade". Since I have an extra tube amp that sits doing nothing I kind of justified playing around.
Are there no real benefits to be had going active in my case?
Many thanks for the info!
I've read on various forums people were raving on how much their system improved after going with a multiple amp and active xover setup. So I guess it got me convinced it is an "upgrade". Since I have an extra tube amp that sits doing nothing I kind of justified playing around.
Are there no real benefits to be had going active in my case?
For c2, c3 , c4
Mundorf F Cap 47uf / 250V, M-CAP� MKP
Mundorf F Cap 15uf / 250V, M-CAP� MKP
Mundorf F Cap 0.47uf / 630V, M-CAP� MKP
Planning to order them from partsconnexion.com
I'm having a hard time sourcing the r3 and r4 though. At least with the exact same specs. Any recommendations?
Are those called wirewound power resistors?
Thanks!
Mundorf F Cap 47uf / 250V, M-CAP� MKP
Mundorf F Cap 15uf / 250V, M-CAP� MKP
Mundorf F Cap 0.47uf / 630V, M-CAP� MKP
Planning to order them from partsconnexion.com
I'm having a hard time sourcing the r3 and r4 though. At least with the exact same specs. Any recommendations?
Are those called wirewound power resistors?
Thanks!
Always safe to go UP in wattage. Leave about 2 quarter thickness between resistor and board if not a little more to allow for air cooling.
R3 - 12W MILLS-71904
R4- 5W MILLS-66115
Yes, in this case they are also non-inductive wirewound, with tremendously good precision, noise and thermal characteristics. They won't change value with heat.
R3 - 12W MILLS-71904
R4- 5W MILLS-66115
Yes, in this case they are also non-inductive wirewound, with tremendously good precision, noise and thermal characteristics.
They won't change value with heat.
If you are absolutely dead set on going hybrid, remove L1, C1, R1 on the woofer and C2/R2 on the mid.
However!!
To do this properly requires you to be able to properly measure the speaker! You can't just go active and play around settings. If you don't know how to do that, just leave it alone and stick with upgrading the crossover parts.
Best,
E
However!!
To do this properly requires you to be able to properly measure the speaker! You can't just go active and play around settings.
If you don't know how to do that, just leave it alone and stick with upgrading the crossover parts. Best,
E
A hybrid xo would be: passive tweeter and mid, but active woofer.
So, leave C2/R2 in place, and power the mid and tweeter with its existing passive xo.
Remove or bypass L1, C1, R1 and use active xo and separate amp connected directly to woofer.
So, the woofer only has a low pass filter. that's L1,C1/R1. The Mid has both a high-pass and a low-pass filter. The high-pass can now be removed, right?
C2/R2 is the mid high-pass filter, which would be replaced by the active crossover, or am I misreading the diagram?
But again, I don't think it's worth it. New caps should spruce it up and not require measurements and analysis that adding an active Xover would.
Best,
E
C2/R2 is the mid high-pass filter, which would be replaced by the active crossover, or am I misreading the diagram?
But again, I don't think it's worth it.
New caps should spruce it up and not require measurements and analysis that adding an active Xover would. Best,
E
I'm a fan of Canton speakers! IME, they are very well engineered. I have heard 3 models and all of them impressed me. Two were 3-ways smaller than yours and the third were giant 4-way floorstanders.
From experience, the gains to be had from modifying a well-designed passive loudspeaker are minimal. Sometimes there is no benefit, apart from extra complexity, which might be better only in appearance.
This is very good advice. Whatever you decide, you will need measurement capability if you are going to make a proper job of it.
At the risk of derailing the topic, though, I want to suggest that you satisfy yourself that you have taken care of the room acoustics before proceeding. IMO, there is (or "may be", depending on your room) much more potential for improvement here, apart from replacing possibly deteriorated caps.
From experience, the gains to be had from modifying a well-designed passive loudspeaker are minimal. Sometimes there is no benefit, apart from extra complexity, which might be better only in appearance.
<snip>
However!!
To do this properly requires you to be able to properly measure the speaker! You can't just go active and play around settings.
This is very good advice. Whatever you decide, you will need measurement capability if you are going to make a proper job of it.
At the risk of derailing the topic, though, I want to suggest that you satisfy yourself that you have taken care of the room acoustics before proceeding. IMO, there is (or "may be", depending on your room) much more potential for improvement here, apart from replacing possibly deteriorated caps.
If you are absolutely dead set on going hybrid, remove L1, C1, R1 on the woofer and C2/R2 on the mid.
However!!
To do this properly requires you to be able to properly measure the speaker! You can't just go active and play around settings.
Best,
E
I guess I'm not dead set anymore
I do have a mic and REW and with the info available and little bit of guidance from you guys, I might be able to measure it the right way. I guess like Shaun mentioned, I should take care of the room first and see what's what afterwards.Ordered the caps and resistors. Quite curious of the outcome.
Big fan too! Atm I have 3 pairs of Cantons. You derailed the topic in a good direction. Yes, my room needs help. I measured the listening position with rew and the freq response has huge peaks and nulls 60+db apart. That's why I was considering dsp room correction.
I haven't found a section where I should start a room treatment/correction help thread without being out of place. Maybe someone can point me?
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