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A bit too large for WAF. And too tall for center-to-center to a large tweeter like the TPL...
After reading through a bit more on these, I'm thinking the SEOS 24 and JBL 2384 are looking better. I want to like the K510 but find no measurements. The Selenium I'm having a hard time finding in Brazil.
While I initially thought the 2384 was too wide for my living room...well, it still is...but I'm rationalizing it's only 15cm wider than a SEOS 24, which happens to be the same width (24") than the cone driven horn I'm building now. Maybe I could convince the wife...
I envision using the two 10" midbass woofers below it, side by side, a la JBL Everest.
How do you think I should go about deciding between SEOS 24 and JBL 2384?
Decide for a compression driver to use with either? Or look at one CD for the SEOS and another CD optimum for JBL?
I wish there was info available on the SEOS. Smaller is still better WAF-wise. Short of Face saying he has been very satisfied with the SEOS + BMS for 3 years, there is very little info about response, polars, subjective sound quality.
On the JBL side, on top of more data published by JBL, there are djk's and Pooh's encouraging reports on sound quality.
While I initially thought the 2384 was too wide for my living room...well, it still is...but I'm rationalizing it's only 15cm wider than a SEOS 24, which happens to be the same width (24") than the cone driven horn I'm building now. Maybe I could convince the wife...
I envision using the two 10" midbass woofers below it, side by side, a la JBL Everest.
How do you think I should go about deciding between SEOS 24 and JBL 2384?
Decide for a compression driver to use with either? Or look at one CD for the SEOS and another CD optimum for JBL?
I wish there was info available on the SEOS. Smaller is still better WAF-wise. Short of Face saying he has been very satisfied with the SEOS + BMS for 3 years, there is very little info about response, polars, subjective sound quality.
On the JBL side, on top of more data published by JBL, there are djk's and Pooh's encouraging reports on sound quality.
Not a CD horn (the walls are continuously curved), but the polars on the spec sheet do look good in the range you want, 500Hz, 1kHz & 2kHz.
Also, the >30cm length is important, for getting to 450Hz. Most (PA / non-boutique) horns are only about 20cm long.
Parts Express say they have two of these:
Selenium HL4750-SLF 2" Bi-Radial Horn 40 x 20 4-Bolt
The SEOS is only 20cm long, this might be why POOH says it is not good <650Hz.
The 2384 doesn't seem to be sold individually. I see it for use with a 1.4" driver "Crossover Frequency - 630 Hz"
To go low, the old JBL stuff is probably better than their new stuff. You can search ebay for used JBL 2386 horns (I see some in California going for US $35). These 2386 with a 2" driver should be better for use down to 450Hz than a 2384 horn with a 1.4" driver.
The newer JBL drivers have smaller throats and diaphragms and a much higher flare rate (~550Hz) because "many horns are now intended for nominal crossover at 800 Hz", as described in these:
https://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n21.pdf
435BE
No polars handy, here is quick measurement at 2m. Depending on how loud you listen, 450hz may be fine.
Thank you!
Looks pretty good. BTW, 450Hz is not a hard number. The twin 10" mid basses below this can easily go higher.
Can you tell me more about that measurement? Indoors/outside, gated, smoothened?
I don't listen too loud. 85 to 90dB maybe 95dB when alone, as measured with a radio shack hand device while playing music. Meaning average SPL.
My goal is to drive this midrange with a 45 SET.
Looks interesting!
Thank you.
I will take another shot at finding them in Brazil. I believe they are made there, so should be able to.
800Hz is too high for my needs. I think 650 would be OK, and beyond 700 it feels to me like is too high considering the TPL would take over at 2kHz.
The 2386 JBL with a good 2" driver is usable to around 700-800 (it sounds good) , the JBL 2384 Cinema horn is good to 650 Hz. - maybe the cleanest horn I ever heard - very neutral sound - The Selenium 4750 looks like a JBL 2386 copy and the graphs show falling response below 1K. To get below 600 you need a big (long) horn.
450-2000Hz - JBL CMCD, a no-brainer IMO! JBL 2169H driver with the original phase plug. Auto-Tech in Poland have made a custom Seos horn for this driver called Seos 24-4 (don't get fooled by the name, it's actually a 30" horn). You can cross it over as low as 220-250Hz (depending on your room, you are in the Schroeder frequency area here), the 8" driver has no problem with that (it don't even need any HP filter, you can just let it roll of and use EQ to make a nice slope). Ideal low-pass crossover is in the 1500-2200Hz area.
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Lew, I have the JBL 2384 cinema waveguide as well and echo POOH's comments. I cross mine at 650Hz with no issues.
The trick is finding a nice 1.5" exit CD to match. The stock CD that comes with the 4722 package is an undamped Ti JBL 2432h. I am swapping those out for a JBL 2453h-SL aquaplased Ti this weekend.
User notnyt over at AVSForum tried several JBL 1.5" exit drivers and 2453h-sl has a better fr response and less distortion than the stock - and the best bang for the buck in the bunch tested. Only the Be Truextent sounded a bit better, but at a much higher cost. Several forum members have performed the 2453h-SL swap and are impressed with improved smoothness. I can't remember for sure, but similar thoughts on the Lansing Heritage forum.
Thread with measurements start here: Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews and goes on for pages...
The trick is finding a nice 1.5" exit CD to match. The stock CD that comes with the 4722 package is an undamped Ti JBL 2432h. I am swapping those out for a JBL 2453h-SL aquaplased Ti this weekend.
User notnyt over at AVSForum tried several JBL 1.5" exit drivers and 2453h-sl has a better fr response and less distortion than the stock - and the best bang for the buck in the bunch tested. Only the Be Truextent sounded a bit better, but at a much higher cost. Several forum members have performed the 2453h-SL swap and are impressed with improved smoothness. I can't remember for sure, but similar thoughts on the Lansing Heritage forum.
Thread with measurements start here: Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews and goes on for pages...
I really am enjoying the Altec 288 8g in my 2384
Problem I think OP will have with these is justifying crossing them over so low to an AMT. All they really need is a top octave treble horn in my system.
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Yea
This doesn't seem consistent with your other statement (that I placed first).
Based on driver, length and flare rate, the 2386 (and clones) should go lower: they take a 2" driver, are about 350mm long, and expand slowly.
The JBL 2384 Cinema horn takes a smaller driver, looks like it is ~300mm long, and expands rapidly.
If you were comparing raw units (not using a baffle) the 2386 might have more LF ripple because of the smaller mouth. If it was thoughtfully mounted, to have the same baffle width as the much wider cinema horn, I think the results would be different.
Falling but still probably still OK - the 10 watt graph for the D4400Ti on this horn shows 115dB to 350Hz, which would be plenty for home use, for most people.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-230--d440ti-spec-sheet.pdf
The Cinema horn seems to have a similarly falling response (in the only measurement I could find for it):
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=622713&stc=1&d=1427236192
It looks like it's as close as you can get to the OS expansion that Geddes champions, while having a rectangular mouth. So I can see why you'd like it: a relatively uncoloured horn, but allowing closer centre-to-centre spacing than a round horn does.
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I have the 2386, it doesn't work well below 700 Hz, the mouth may be too small - the best I have been able to do is with the Community M200's and they do 700 cycles in these - the driver will go to 350 in some bigger horns. It's actually pretty short compared to other 2" horns. It does sound good and maybe a baffle will help?
The JBL has nothing to do with the Gedlee contraptions!!!! LOL, what did hear as a driver in the 2384? Was it eq'ed? What was the crossover point and slope? Was it with a bass horn or a direct radiator?
I have a few measurements of my own for the 2384 in the HLCM thread here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/287641-hlcm-horn-loaded-compact-monitor-12.html#post4962538
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I think so. I've been playing on and off with old (long snout) JBL 2" drivers on cheapo horns (2386 clones). I ground the 'lips' off and extended the horns to a ~600x450mm mouth (+ increased the depth slightly). To my ears + measurements, they are happy < 700Hz.
I've crossed them around 400Hz, but I may be less demanding than you
Anyway, maybe try yours on a big(ger) baffle? The Selenium spec doesn't say what they use - they may have had the horn mounted on an IEC baffle.
The 2384 CINEMA ARRAY HORN and the Geddes horn both have flat walls, with a roundover at the throat and large radius curve at the mouth being the only bends.
That is: the profile of the JBL horn looks a lot like the profile in the pic I've attached here (from Geddes' patent Acoustic waveguide for controlled sound radiation US 7068805 B2).
It seems to me that this similarity of profile would make them sound somewhat alike.
OK, thanks. What is the length of the 2384 (was my 300mm guess about right)?
The spec sheet D4400Ti on HL4750-SLF HORN: loses about 5dB between 1kHz - 500Hz
Your measurement altec 288 on 2384 CINEMA ARRAY HORN: loses about 8dB between 1kHz - 500Hz
...so your own measurements seem to support my suggestion that a bigger driver / lower flare rate / longer horn will play a little bit lower.
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Actually what I am trying to say is the 2384 cinema horn has equal low frequency response as the 2386 but sounds better in my system. I have the Selenium D405ti (nice driver!) and it doesn't have any more low frequency response in the 2386 - same goes for the TAD, JBL and Gauss drivers I have.
I think JBL calls these horns PT - progressive transition. From what you are saying the gedlee people should be suing the Harman people.
Edit - I am wrong - JBL calls these horns optimized aperture http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/tn_v1n21.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-3-way#.WKJ1UX9jKwU
I think JBL calls these horns PT - progressive transition. From what you are saying the gedlee people should be suing the Harman people.
Edit - I am wrong - JBL calls these horns optimized aperture http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/tn_v1n21.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-3-way#.WKJ1UX9jKwU
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