I am obsessed with speaker building, cheap amp cobbling. I have built probably a dozen different speakers. My favorite for low/ moderate levels is the " best 3" full range" detailed by Zaph audio, with a 6 inch passive sub. Just sweet vocals and no shout. Playing from an I-Mac thru a lepai 2024A+ unmodded.
My girlfriend is way over my obsessive quest to hear the next great sounding speaker/amp. And I am waisting way too much time and need to just settle and be done. My previous builds have been strictly budget driven. That is awesome sound for the least money. Now I am working and can spend a bit more for the u!Timate in sound. That is still limited to around $200 for a pair. So, now I am sweaty palmed about which design to build?
This has to be the last and final one! Even still I risk being kicked out and living on the street with my new speakers!Lol.
The choices I have in mind are the zaph audio "bargain aluminium mtm with Dayton da175 driver, the zaph Za5 with his designed 5" za14w08, and the Ampslab "Ultima" using the same za14w08 woofer? To complicate this decision, the Ampslab site has like 8 different configurations for this driver with diff crossovers and two diff tweeters. I am not strictly tied to an mtm design if the MT can play SPL adequately for when the gf is not home and I want to crank it! Flexibility for use is considered as I have a powered sub I can use but not loving the boominess it creates in my 12x15 living room. So I might want the last build to be able to extent pretty low. I listen to all genres but obsess over jazz and surprisingly reggae. With pop, techno dance mixes, et all.
So if anyone can shed any light and help me finish this obsessive search for great sounding system I would be grateful! I think it comes down to the 5 inch woofer not getting down as low as the Dayton 7"? I really just want it all, smoothness, no shoutiness, great clean sound with voices done justice. Not a bass head but like to hear it clean and distortion free. Thanks for letting me vent my psychological problems! Lol
My girlfriend is way over my obsessive quest to hear the next great sounding speaker/amp. And I am waisting way too much time and need to just settle and be done. My previous builds have been strictly budget driven. That is awesome sound for the least money. Now I am working and can spend a bit more for the u!Timate in sound. That is still limited to around $200 for a pair. So, now I am sweaty palmed about which design to build?
This has to be the last and final one! Even still I risk being kicked out and living on the street with my new speakers!Lol.
The choices I have in mind are the zaph audio "bargain aluminium mtm with Dayton da175 driver, the zaph Za5 with his designed 5" za14w08, and the Ampslab "Ultima" using the same za14w08 woofer? To complicate this decision, the Ampslab site has like 8 different configurations for this driver with diff crossovers and two diff tweeters. I am not strictly tied to an mtm design if the MT can play SPL adequately for when the gf is not home and I want to crank it! Flexibility for use is considered as I have a powered sub I can use but not loving the boominess it creates in my 12x15 living room. So I might want the last build to be able to extent pretty low. I listen to all genres but obsess over jazz and surprisingly reggae. With pop, techno dance mixes, et all.
So if anyone can shed any light and help me finish this obsessive search for great sounding system I would be grateful! I think it comes down to the 5 inch woofer not getting down as low as the Dayton 7"? I really just want it all, smoothness, no shoutiness, great clean sound with voices done justice. Not a bass head but like to hear it clean and distortion free. Thanks for letting me vent my psychological problems! Lol
Thanks Pete! Yes I was expecting responses that would suggest other options. Do u know what "the budget is for the wave guide" also do u think I have to go with mtm? Or would 2way produce loud output? I will run them with a Denon AVR-591, I will also need to make a center channel for movies. I need voice centric sound as I have some hearing loss from? Too loud music maybe? Or the years in a machine shop with high pitched squeal? Has anyone heard/built the swift/Ultima from Ampslab and what version did u hear/build? Thanks for the fast reply Pete!
Popular all over the world. SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8 midbass plus SB29RDCN-04 or SB26STC-C4 tweeter.
DIY designs with 1.6kHz-2kHz crossovers and several different box volumes are available.
Example cabinets and crossover attached. Google "SB17NRXC35-8" for other examples:
IF you are interested, more support is available
========
Dome = SB29RDC-4 $52
6" midbass=SB17NRXC35-8 $58
Passive crossover parts < $50/speaker
-----
-Ported volume vs. bass frequency:
0.6ft^3 = F3 =48Hz
0.7ft^3 = F3 =45Hz
0.8ft^3 = F3 =42Hz
1.0ft^3 = F3 =38Hz
43“ tall MLTL~35Hz
DIY designs with 1.6kHz-2kHz crossovers and several different box volumes are available.
Example cabinets and crossover attached. Google "SB17NRXC35-8" for other examples:
IF you are interested, more support is available
========
Dome = SB29RDC-4 $52
6" midbass=SB17NRXC35-8 $58
Passive crossover parts < $50/speaker
-----
-Ported volume vs. bass frequency:
0.6ft^3 = F3 =48Hz
0.7ft^3 = F3 =45Hz
0.8ft^3 = F3 =42Hz
1.0ft^3 = F3 =38Hz
43“ tall MLTL~35Hz
Attachments
Sorry to butt in, but LineSource has picked out two very good drivers there.
6" SB17NRXC35-8 :: SB Acoustics
SB29RDC-C000-4 :: SB Acoustics
The 6" bass has some severe breakup issues above 3kHz, but has a lot to like, if you use a good third order filter which kinda puts back the inductance that SB work so hard to lose with copper pole pieces. But in a more linear way, if you follow.
To me, choosing a ring radiator over a soft dome is a no-brainer. Soft domes are, IMO, terrible and theoretically flawed designs. The centre of the dome flaps undamped like a flag in the breeze, and robs you of musical information.
SB definitely produce great value drivers, with all the features of more expensive scanspeak patented designs. What's not to like?
6" SB17NRXC35-8 :: SB Acoustics
SB29RDC-C000-4 :: SB Acoustics
The 6" bass has some severe breakup issues above 3kHz, but has a lot to like, if you use a good third order filter which kinda puts back the inductance that SB work so hard to lose with copper pole pieces. But in a more linear way, if you follow.
To me, choosing a ring radiator over a soft dome is a no-brainer. Soft domes are, IMO, terrible and theoretically flawed designs. The centre of the dome flaps undamped like a flag in the breeze, and robs you of musical information.
SB definitely produce great value drivers, with all the features of more expensive scanspeak patented designs. What's not to like?
Butt in all you want, I am technically asking for butt in! Thanks, I read Zaph's review which talks about a strange breakup needing attention whith crossover, and copper ring to reduce Harmonic distortion. Also, read a good write-up and build from Troels Graveson who has alot of opinion on speaker design. He used an LR4 crossover but favors an LR2 for musicality and sets the woofer forward 3/4 of an inch with a double thick baffle to time align with the tweeter. I think he crossed over at 2300hz so I don't think the breakup node needs attention? I'm not understanding your comment regarding using 3 order crossover to put back inductance- linear. Above my pay grade. Is there 3 different cone material for this driver? Talks about paper, polypropylene, and aluminum ? He used aluminum for the build but I think he was going to use PO for the LR 2 option?¡ thanks for the info
A Man with a Plan.
Your Goal: Adequate low bass extension to cleanly blend with a solo subwoofer.
-Building a 0.8cuft internal volume cabinet will allow ported -F3 =42Hz which is low enough for most listening without a sub, and should also blend well with a single 2.1 shared subwoofer in operation.
-The port can be pluged for a sealed -F3 = 72Hz with a Qtc = 0.6, which will produce improved transients over a ported alignment.
---You can test this sealed box sound with your subwoofer.
---You can plan to add a separate musical woofer box under each TM at a future date. 3-way speakers. A Man with a Plan.
-Building a 2cuft internal volume bass-shelf ported alignment floor standing cabinet would allow -F3=32Hz, and flat bass down to 32Hz when the box is placed near a rear wall for room gain. You can move your subwoofer to the room side/rear to smooth room bass modes. A Man with a Plan.
Greetings from Sunny California!
Go Beach?
Got some Change?
Does your girlfriend favor a 1-piece or 2-piece?
With a 2-piece you can find a shape that best holds-and-shows the top two.
Want some junk in the trunk for the BOOM-BOOM-BOOM? With clever curves, a Big Bottom turns into Voluptuous.
-------
A well designed TMW 3-speaker 3-way can produce the best sound/$ in your room.
A two cabinet TM + W design is easier to move and has greater usage flexibility. BUT is not as volume efficient as one shared box.
Tall-and-lean is SEXY, but one big woof sounds better than two small woofs.
Many challenges for the best....it takes a Village.
So, what's the plan? Man
Your Goal: Adequate low bass extension to cleanly blend with a solo subwoofer.
-Building a 0.8cuft internal volume cabinet will allow ported -F3 =42Hz which is low enough for most listening without a sub, and should also blend well with a single 2.1 shared subwoofer in operation.
-The port can be pluged for a sealed -F3 = 72Hz with a Qtc = 0.6, which will produce improved transients over a ported alignment.
---You can test this sealed box sound with your subwoofer.
---You can plan to add a separate musical woofer box under each TM at a future date. 3-way speakers. A Man with a Plan.
-Building a 2cuft internal volume bass-shelf ported alignment floor standing cabinet would allow -F3=32Hz, and flat bass down to 32Hz when the box is placed near a rear wall for room gain. You can move your subwoofer to the room side/rear to smooth room bass modes. A Man with a Plan.
Greetings from Sunny California!
Go Beach?
Got some Change?
Does your girlfriend favor a 1-piece or 2-piece?
With a 2-piece you can find a shape that best holds-and-shows the top two.
Want some junk in the trunk for the BOOM-BOOM-BOOM? With clever curves, a Big Bottom turns into Voluptuous.
-------
A well designed TMW 3-speaker 3-way can produce the best sound/$ in your room.
A two cabinet TM + W design is easier to move and has greater usage flexibility. BUT is not as volume efficient as one shared box.
Tall-and-lean is SEXY, but one big woof sounds better than two small woofs.
Many challenges for the best....it takes a Village.
So, what's the plan? Man
Attachments
Oh linesource ! You be sweet talking me all about sexy and seductive like. I trust your knowledge and experience! I want the two piece with nice tight junk in the trunk, but knows how to use it all the way down! Lol! So, as u are suggesting I think it will be a tall and slender model with quality wineglass upper, a slender but seductive midsection, and boom,boom, that is cellulite free and void of fat! If I have serious pushing in mind I will use her chubby sisters bottom end x1 as two is more than any one man can handle! So, does your original suggestion floorstander still fit the criteria?
IF YOU WANT A QUICKIE, build the SB17+SB29 design on the Parts Express website(Xover + box info attached)
...otherwise...
YOU MUST sketch out a dimentioned cabinet before a crossover can be designed from a "sonic signature" developed in simulation(see my earlier post).
YOU SHOULD review the measured performance and "subjective sound" of the common crossovers circuits.
The 12" Dayton DS315-8 woofer with Fs~24Hz and 91db@2.83V sensitivity gets very high ratings for a $75 driver. A ported cabinet of 2.2cuft produces a QB3 alignment, and a ported cabinet of 3cuft produces a lower F3 bass-shelf alignment which generates smooth bass when placed near walls for room gain.(WinISD attached) Using two 8" woofers is another alternative if you desire to keep a narrow baffle. Bennic bi-polar capacitors are a low cost(200uf for $3) solution for the 100uF to 250uF used in woofer Xover ckt. PartsExpress sells the Dayton DS315-8 and crossover parts.
For a tweeter+midrange cabinet the top rated speakers use:
1) Avalon ISIS style tapered and truncated pyramid.
2) Vapor Acoustics CNC style large radius front edges with shaped rear tapered volume.
3) Troels Galvesen style Illuminator Monitor 10"-12" wide with deep bevels on the upper L+R +Top edges.
Illuminator-Monitor
4) B&W 801 style sphere with rear tapered tube. A tough build.
Pics show a wide bottom front woofer, and also a deeper cabinet side woofer which can be adapted to work with an adapted version of Troels Galvesen's Illuminator Monitor cabinet. With the goal of 2.2-3cuft for the Dayton DS315-8 woofer, you can sketch out your ideas for a woofer cabinet that blends with your TM cabinet design. A man with a plan.
...otherwise...
YOU MUST sketch out a dimentioned cabinet before a crossover can be designed from a "sonic signature" developed in simulation(see my earlier post).
YOU SHOULD review the measured performance and "subjective sound" of the common crossovers circuits.
The 12" Dayton DS315-8 woofer with Fs~24Hz and 91db@2.83V sensitivity gets very high ratings for a $75 driver. A ported cabinet of 2.2cuft produces a QB3 alignment, and a ported cabinet of 3cuft produces a lower F3 bass-shelf alignment which generates smooth bass when placed near walls for room gain.(WinISD attached) Using two 8" woofers is another alternative if you desire to keep a narrow baffle. Bennic bi-polar capacitors are a low cost(200uf for $3) solution for the 100uF to 250uF used in woofer Xover ckt. PartsExpress sells the Dayton DS315-8 and crossover parts.
For a tweeter+midrange cabinet the top rated speakers use:
1) Avalon ISIS style tapered and truncated pyramid.
2) Vapor Acoustics CNC style large radius front edges with shaped rear tapered volume.
3) Troels Galvesen style Illuminator Monitor 10"-12" wide with deep bevels on the upper L+R +Top edges.
Illuminator-Monitor
4) B&W 801 style sphere with rear tapered tube. A tough build.
Pics show a wide bottom front woofer, and also a deeper cabinet side woofer which can be adapted to work with an adapted version of Troels Galvesen's Illuminator Monitor cabinet. With the goal of 2.2-3cuft for the Dayton DS315-8 woofer, you can sketch out your ideas for a woofer cabinet that blends with your TM cabinet design. A man with a plan.
Attachments
If you decide to use a stepped baffle to time align the SB29 tweeter by 18mm(56us) with the deeper SB17 midbass, you can use a LR2_mid + Inverted-LR2_tweet crossover similar to the attached for a 8.5" - 9" wide baffle. You should study the trade-offs between LR2 and BW3 for sound, and audible effects of extra edge diffraction.
Living in Florida, you probably do not have a thick wool scarf you can cut up and put on the front baffle to reduce edge effects.
Living in Florida, you probably do not have a thick wool scarf you can cut up and put on the front baffle to reduce edge effects.
Attachments
What's a scarf? Lol! Sorry but I wouldn't think of wrapping a scarf around my speakers! Edge diffraction be damned. But, it may help with the WAF? Se shiek? I did read on one of growls pages that he prefers LR2 crossover vs the other alternatives. Thanks so much for your amazing help! It has turned into an involved process with the added 3 way, not to mention size is larger than I think my room and woman will allow. If I do this it will have to be two way and maybe cross to the single sub at 60hz or 40hz and that might remove some of the boominess? Or play most of the musical bass thru the woofer and let the sub handle the sub stuff? Anyway I am grateful and have a good roadmap to my final destination. How would a surround setup with Klipsch sk8.5 compare sound wise? I found an entire setup for $125 US. That's for two towers, two surrounds, and a center that needs new drivers installed. But not the matching sub tho. Just wondering if the Klipsch's would sound as good?
More info, questions
On page one you make reference to different cab/baffle design configurations and list the illuminator beveled upper edges and top for edge diffractions. Is there any reading on the subject available? Would it be a viable thing to use the illuminator edge treatments with the stepped baffle for time alignment design? That is a stepped front for time align with illuminator beveled edges. I have been almost ready to pull the trigger a couple of times on this but I have some confusion in details. The illuminated two way on Troels G. Site is .75 ft sq and I can get dimensions from the referenced PE part number cabinet. The cab drawing u posted on page one is 10 inch wide baffle? So how many ft sq is that cab? And the rec. Baffle width is 8.5 to 10? I haven't looked at the crossover components yet, in detail/ price and availability. I have lots of air core inductors but non are 15's, mine are 20, and I suppose they won't work as inductance is too light? What about the designer caps that Troels uses? Are they a must have? And at what cost? My mind is spinning. Thanks, sorry about the previous post regarding the Klipsch option. Not diy, commercial. They do come up alot in discussions as being audiophile stuff. And was easy way out. Sorry
If you decide to use a stepped baffle to time align the SB29 tweeter by 18mm(56us) with the deeper SB17 midbass, you can use a LR2_mid + Inverted-LR2_tweet crossover similar to the attached for a 8.5" - 9" wide baffle. You should study the trade-offs between LR2 and BW3 for sound, and audible effects of extra edge diffraction.
Living in Florida, you probably do not have a thick wool scarf you can cut up and put on the front baffle to reduce edge effects.
On page one you make reference to different cab/baffle design configurations and list the illuminator beveled upper edges and top for edge diffractions. Is there any reading on the subject available? Would it be a viable thing to use the illuminator edge treatments with the stepped baffle for time alignment design? That is a stepped front for time align with illuminator beveled edges. I have been almost ready to pull the trigger a couple of times on this but I have some confusion in details. The illuminated two way on Troels G. Site is .75 ft sq and I can get dimensions from the referenced PE part number cabinet. The cab drawing u posted on page one is 10 inch wide baffle? So how many ft sq is that cab? And the rec. Baffle width is 8.5 to 10? I haven't looked at the crossover components yet, in detail/ price and availability. I have lots of air core inductors but non are 15's, mine are 20, and I suppose they won't work as inductance is too light? What about the designer caps that Troels uses? Are they a must have? And at what cost? My mind is spinning. Thanks, sorry about the previous post regarding the Klipsch option. Not diy, commercial. They do come up alot in discussions as being audiophile stuff. And was easy way out. Sorry
-A stepped baffle adds diffraction and removes the value of top bevels.
-A high parts count Xover can control time delay and phase. Troels Illuminator solution.
-The baffle diffraction sims in my earlier posts show the effects of baffle width and edge treatment.
This SB17NRXC35 thread should cover your questions.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/295491-sb17nrxc35-8-sb29rdc-c0004-playground.html
A 3-way SB17NRXC35 build showing what one man accomplished with limited tools.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212738-sb-acoustics-3-ways.html
-A high parts count Xover can control time delay and phase. Troels Illuminator solution.
-The baffle diffraction sims in my earlier posts show the effects of baffle width and edge treatment.
This SB17NRXC35 thread should cover your questions.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/295491-sb17nrxc35-8-sb29rdc-c0004-playground.html
A 3-way SB17NRXC35 build showing what one man accomplished with limited tools.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212738-sb-acoustics-3-ways.html
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