I am designing new enclosure for my Yammies and also thinking of replacing stock woofer for better one. Aim is to fit woofer, which will go as low as realistically possible. I know NS-2000 will go for 29 Hz, that would be nice goal.
In this gigantic "Yamaha crossover tweaks" thread, someone hinted using Accuton C220-T6 8" woofer, which has very low distortion.
There is 2 possibilities for new closed enclosure: original 50 litres or full heigh standing speaker of 115 cm height and 100 litres closed box. Vented box is not an option here.
Any ideas for woofer element? 10"? 12"? Low distortion and good transient response are the key elements here.
In this gigantic "Yamaha crossover tweaks" thread, someone hinted using Accuton C220-T6 8" woofer, which has very low distortion.
There is 2 possibilities for new closed enclosure: original 50 litres or full heigh standing speaker of 115 cm height and 100 litres closed box. Vented box is not an option here.
Any ideas for woofer element? 10"? 12"? Low distortion and good transient response are the key elements here.
Scanspeak 21w8555 are very very good and should be comfortable to meet the xo point the mid dome was designed for. Use two per cabinet if concerned about displacement.
I have a pair of these woofers that I used together wit a pair of philips ad12202 wideband drivers that where operating in open baffle, the scans played up to 200hz(ish) in br cabs.
But if I had two 21w8555 per side I would go for sealed cabs.
I also have had a pair of ns1000 (that I regret selling), good speakers that I think with less dry (PA speaker dry) sounding woofer then the stock woofers would be very good speakers.
What amp have you been driving you ns1000 with? I found them being a bit finicky about what amp used but had good luck with hypex as 2.100 plate amp but also a small Adcom GCA510 integrated amp (that I also regret selling). I hear/read that people say they need a lot of power to deliver, but I had good luck with the 50w 8Ohm Adcom so I think there is more to it then lots of power, I know they dive into 2ohms or maybe even lower around 100 hz or there abouts.
Maybe the amp selection will be less of an problem with other woofers.
I have a pair of these woofers that I used together wit a pair of philips ad12202 wideband drivers that where operating in open baffle, the scans played up to 200hz(ish) in br cabs.
But if I had two 21w8555 per side I would go for sealed cabs.
I also have had a pair of ns1000 (that I regret selling), good speakers that I think with less dry (PA speaker dry) sounding woofer then the stock woofers would be very good speakers.
What amp have you been driving you ns1000 with? I found them being a bit finicky about what amp used but had good luck with hypex as 2.100 plate amp but also a small Adcom GCA510 integrated amp (that I also regret selling). I hear/read that people say they need a lot of power to deliver, but I had good luck with the 50w 8Ohm Adcom so I think there is more to it then lots of power, I know they dive into 2ohms or maybe even lower around 100 hz or there abouts.
Maybe the amp selection will be less of an problem with other woofers.
You might want to reconsider a vented box. It will give you more output and less low frequency distortion compared to a closed one. If you refrain from using vented boxes because you want a good transient response: know that the transient response is primarily determined by your room, not by the speaker. Bass traps, multiple subwoofers, parametric EQ can make bass sound tighter.
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I might be poking a beehive here, but the reason I haven't considered vented box is because I have never heard any vented speaker that sounds good on bass. IMHO vented bass sound is always muddy and "round". On contrast, closed box speakers always seem to appear as having tight and well controlled bass. However, I might be dead wrong here.
Can you recommend any woofer element for vented 50-100l cabin?
In Yamaha NS-2000 the 11" woofer has fs=32 Hz in 50l closed box. Is there any woofer element that do the same in 50-100l closed enclosure?
You are not so wrong wrt the typical bass reflex sound; when not optimal tuned it muddens the sound of the midrange too, and in the NS1000 the woofer has to work up to 500 Hz.
In a closed box I guess that this one will be a good candidate:
12" SB34NRX75-6 :: SB Acoustics
There is enough soft ware online to calculate a good closed design.
Before going any further try to learn what you have in your hands...
NS-2000 doesn't have a 11" woofer. Its woofer is 13"!
Don't touch its enclosure, it is rock solid as it is.
SB woofer
The SB woofer is a really good sealed box performer... will yield low 30's in a 65 liter effective internal volume which is what the NS-1000 is when really stuffed... and assuming an RG of about 0.65 ohm (QTS' of .45 with a total system Q of 1.0) but.. the SB is about 4 db less efficient than the stock Yamaha 12".
So.. you can use it, but it will require quite a bit of crossover work to balance the system.
The SB woofer is a really good sealed box performer... will yield low 30's in a 65 liter effective internal volume which is what the NS-1000 is when really stuffed... and assuming an RG of about 0.65 ohm (QTS' of .45 with a total system Q of 1.0) but.. the SB is about 4 db less efficient than the stock Yamaha 12".
So.. you can use it, but it will require quite a bit of crossover work to balance the system.
I have been thinking about this for some time, a three way system influenced by the Yamaha NS1000.
Influenced yes, but not using a 12" bass but a 15"driver. A prime candidate at the moment in my thinking is the SB Acousics 15" SB42FHCL75-6 unit, which models quite well in a sealed enclosure. It won't be a bass excavator i.e. <20Hz but should do 25Hz if mounted closer but not against a rear wall. 111 litres without adding the effects of crossover components gives a Qt of around 0.7 around -9db point approx 27Hz
Just an idea but have not even considering which drivers to go for yet.
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The woofer really does not suit a sealed box.From memory it has Qts of 0.28 and no matter how you configure the box you will not get much bass -3db below about 70hz.
I can't see what is wrong with trying it in a bigger ported box.That really should work.
Indeed I know somebody who has done it and reckons it is a lot better.
Yes ported bass is not optimal but will probably still be better if the woofer being used suits that enclosure type and not the alternative.
I can't see what is wrong with trying it in a bigger ported box.That really should work.
Indeed I know somebody who has done it and reckons it is a lot better.
Yes ported bass is not optimal but will probably still be better if the woofer being used suits that enclosure type and not the alternative.
Some test results linked below. The -10db point is the more important point to predict the possible in-room bass extension.
Test Bench: The SB42FHCL75-6 15” Subwoofer from SB Acoustics | audioXpress
The OP might be interested in this driver, though check out the sensitivity first.
12" SB acoustics based kit
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
Nice frequency response for NS-1000M cabinet with several dB less sensitivity and 3 Om resistance. Another option is going active with the Scan-Speak subwoofer for the project like Yamaha addition for the NS speakers:
YAMAHA YST-SW1000/YST-SW1000Lの仕様 ヤマハ
YAMAHA YST-SW1000/YST-SW1000Lの仕様 ヤマハ
Kozlfm - You didn't follow the link to my project.
I am using the Scanspeak semi active, x2 700w/4ohm Hypex NS500 driving them. Sensitivity of bass driver is less than 1dB below Yamaha driver, but irrelevant when used active.
The ideal enclosure (in which I measured) is 55L which is slightly bigger than the NS1000m at around 50L so I am building new cabinets. Check out my cabinet construction also on my website:
Index
Tight but not deep, stock NS-1000M do little below 50Hz. This is born out by countless peoples measurements, including my own and even demonstrated in the frequency plot in the owners hand book. From Yamaha's own plot, the 40Hz - 20kHz quoted response, is clearly the -6dB figures, -3dB is more like 50Hz - 17kHz. An amp will not change this.
My semi active set up with simplified passive elements tames the forward top end and is less Amp fussy.
Kozlfm - My memory isn't what it was.
Yam Bass is about 91dB sensitivity compared to Scanspeak of 89dB. But like I said, used active, it doesn't have to match the mid/twt drivers, which are around 93dB.
The Scanspeak 30w is listed by them as a Sub driver, but many dealers list it under Woofers. This is because it has an incredibly flat response, not the usual hump response of a Sub and flatter than the Yam.
Used active it blends extremely well with the Yam Mid. I am using Rod Elliott's 24dB/Octave Linkwitz Riley active crossover set at 500Hz, with all discrete op-amps, a mix of Sparkos and Burson. Using this as a Pre filter for the passive crossover removes the need for the passive high pass filter for the mid range driver. This removes the need for the large value cap in its signal path (The 6 large silver cans). This ads a bit of body and warmth to the mids, not a lot, it still sounds predominantly like NS-1000, but a small improvement in my opinion.
On paper the Scanspeak bass driver should give f3 of around 35Hz in an ideal 55L sealed box, but measured in my room, which has a bit of bass lift, it is closer to 30Hz. Bass quality is superb as well, no way inferior, I would say it's better than the Yamaha driver. Clean, articulate, with good timber and a massive x-max if you like it loud.
The only down side is you have to go active, the 30w is nominally 4ohm and as you pointed out, drops to 3ohm in its used frequency band. I didn't want to design a passive crossover that would work with this, as it would be very complex and risked ruining the sound signature of the NS-1000 which I love. The easy and obvious way was to go semi active and keep the passive elements as a two way for mid/twt crossover. It works very well this way.
Yam Bass is about 91dB sensitivity compared to Scanspeak of 89dB. But like I said, used active, it doesn't have to match the mid/twt drivers, which are around 93dB.
The Scanspeak 30w is listed by them as a Sub driver, but many dealers list it under Woofers. This is because it has an incredibly flat response, not the usual hump response of a Sub and flatter than the Yam.
Used active it blends extremely well with the Yam Mid. I am using Rod Elliott's 24dB/Octave Linkwitz Riley active crossover set at 500Hz, with all discrete op-amps, a mix of Sparkos and Burson. Using this as a Pre filter for the passive crossover removes the need for the passive high pass filter for the mid range driver. This removes the need for the large value cap in its signal path (The 6 large silver cans). This ads a bit of body and warmth to the mids, not a lot, it still sounds predominantly like NS-1000, but a small improvement in my opinion.
On paper the Scanspeak bass driver should give f3 of around 35Hz in an ideal 55L sealed box, but measured in my room, which has a bit of bass lift, it is closer to 30Hz. Bass quality is superb as well, no way inferior, I would say it's better than the Yamaha driver. Clean, articulate, with good timber and a massive x-max if you like it loud.
The only down side is you have to go active, the 30w is nominally 4ohm and as you pointed out, drops to 3ohm in its used frequency band. I didn't want to design a passive crossover that would work with this, as it would be very complex and risked ruining the sound signature of the NS-1000 which I love. The easy and obvious way was to go semi active and keep the passive elements as a two way for mid/twt crossover. It works very well this way.
Thanks for the link, it is a really nice project. The NS-1000M bass is a little bit shy and probably its weakest point removed in the project.
It's good that you are currently satisfied with the integration between relatively slow bass and one of the most transient high mid. Sometimes it could be a concern taking in account that their moving mass parameters are so much different, about 2 orders of magnitude.
Even if you don't have any plans to further modify the project and get any midbass, there is always room for improvement like going Troels Gravesen 4 way:
ATS4-HE
Just on option you may consider one day.
It's good that you are currently satisfied with the integration between relatively slow bass and one of the most transient high mid. Sometimes it could be a concern taking in account that their moving mass parameters are so much different, about 2 orders of magnitude.
Even if you don't have any plans to further modify the project and get any midbass, there is always room for improvement like going Troels Gravesen 4 way:
ATS4-HE
Just on option you may consider one day.
Kozlvm - They are sounding so good, I think I will leave well alone.
Quite a few people have heard them in temporary test cabinets, at local hifi meetings and they thought the bass was a seamless mate with the mids. It's a modern unit and does a pretty good job at keeping up with the mid driver. Two people in Malaysia have followed my project and built their own sets and are very happy with the way they sound. On their first public airing, they had other NS-1000M owners round for a listen and said it was quite funny to see their jaws drop when they heard them.
I have another HiFi meet coming up, I hope to get the opportunity to try some valve amps to drive Mid/Twt combined with the Class D bass, should be interesting.
Quite a few people have heard them in temporary test cabinets, at local hifi meetings and they thought the bass was a seamless mate with the mids. It's a modern unit and does a pretty good job at keeping up with the mid driver. Two people in Malaysia have followed my project and built their own sets and are very happy with the way they sound. On their first public airing, they had other NS-1000M owners round for a listen and said it was quite funny to see their jaws drop when they heard them.
I have another HiFi meet coming up, I hope to get the opportunity to try some valve amps to drive Mid/Twt combined with the Class D bass, should be interesting.
Plus 1 for the 30W its seems to be almost uknown but if you want a big sealed box driver its great.I use it in a 3 way semi active system with scan mid/treble passive filtered and a Hypex Fusion plate amp driving the 30W.It's also in a 55 Lt sealed box but also floor coupled.The measurements I took also were remarkably flat and followed the Scan info almost exactly.
The Fusion allows room correction and has 3 pre set options so a bit of boost can be added
My in room response gives a clean result down to 20Hz and is as tight as I have ever heard.
The Fusion allows room correction and has 3 pre set options so a bit of boost can be added
My in room response gives a clean result down to 20Hz and is as tight as I have ever heard.
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