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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Why no bipole speakers ?
Why no bipole speakers ?
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Old 20th October 2016, 02:05 PM   #1
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Why no bipole speakers ?
Default Why no bipole speakers ?

I'm interested in building a FAST speaker, essentially a 2-way with full-range doing the mids-treble and a supporting woofer underneath. I was thinking about a bipole design for the woofer - they don't seem very popular anymore - too many issues with them ?
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Old 20th October 2016, 02:41 PM   #2
S4m is offline S4m  Germany
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You need spend twice the money for a speaker and everyone seems to jump on the MiniDSP train, no need for bipole speakers...To be honest i prefer a bipole over a DSP corrected whatever
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Old 20th October 2016, 02:46 PM   #3
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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The force cancellation is nice, but you might end up having to stagger the crossover frequencies of the woofers to avoid cancellation due to path length differences.

Chris
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Old 20th October 2016, 04:13 PM   #4
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Why no bipole speakers ?
Why do you want to do this? If it is to compensate the finite baffle then you essentially still have a monopole.
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Old 20th October 2016, 05:46 PM   #5
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Why no bipole speakers ?
I have been noodling a bipole FAST (at least for the woofers). It is an exercise of adding 2 more helper woofers to a very good MTM. Part of the noodling is how best to deal with the problem Chris mentions.

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Old 20th October 2016, 08:47 PM   #6
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Why no bipole speakers ?
The bipole helps a lot with the loss of bass due to baffle step. The issue to watch out for is that with a bipole, you cannot place it too close to a back wall or you get a big cancellation dip due to reflection from wall. My sims show a distancenofncirxa 4-5ft away from nearest back wall.

Some sims and a build of a 4 driver bipole MLTL here.

Tangband W3-881 MLTL build

Last edited by xrk971; 20th October 2016 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 20th October 2016, 09:15 PM   #7
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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The several bipole FAST configurations we've built to date have all had side mounted bass drivers, and certainly one of the issues with them is placement relative to side walls, etc. - they tend to be even more persnickety that mono-poles. In Dave's large main living / listening room, that's not as big a problem as it can be in a 400 or less sq ft space with furniture, asymmetrical room boundaries, pony walls, yada yada

Front to back bipoles also have issues - similar in my experience to large dipole planars or OBs; you know - at some point the room acoustics get in the way of what you hope to accomplish with an exotic design, and effective treatment can get bulky /expensive.
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Old 20th October 2016, 09:52 PM   #8
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Some "explorers", are evloving bipole speaker ambience goals into enhancing left+right 2-speaker stereo "up front" sound stage imaging, into a more realistic "around the room" spacial image.

Example: Front 60-degree angled-in Econowave speakers providing both the imaging and dynamics for a proper front sound stage, agumented by a separate stereo pair of under-200Hz short-horn midbass speakers aimed toward the ceiling and rear wall.
-----------------
Duke ..... the owner of the AudioKinetic Company

"As music lovers, what are we looking for in a high-end audio speaker? The closest approach we can reasonably make to recreating the perception - the feeling - of being in the presence of live music. Timbre, inner detail, and dynamic impact are all a part of this. But perhaps the most elusive aspect is image density - that is, the perception that the sound-source images we hear in space have body and weight to them. This goes beyond the pinpoint imaging of a good mini-monitor, and beyond the rich sense of envelopment of a good omnidirectional system, though it includes aspects of both.

The key to recreating sound images that feel like the real thing is to set up a powerful, diffuse, spectrally correct, fairly late-arriving reverberant field. When done right, the ear-brain system interprets this reverberant energy as confirmation of the imaging cues in the first-arrival sound and we perceive those sound images as having realistic density.

The Dream Maker LCS system uses a high quality pair of main speakers to generate the desired first-arrival sound, and then a pair of separate, dedicated, highly directional upfiring array modules adds the extra spectrally-correct reverberant energy, with the required time delay coming from the long path this energy takes bouncing off the ceiling before reaching the listening position. The Late Ceiling Splash configuration is the invention of James Romeyn, and could be considered an advanced evolution of the controlled-pattern bipolar configuration first seen in the original award-winning AudioKinesis Dream Maker. "

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Old 21st October 2016, 12:13 AM   #9
Jim Griffin is offline Jim Griffin  United States
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For the purpose of correctness regrading Duke LeJeune of AudioKinesis, you can go to his web site given by LineSource at:

Home

Duke's child board AudioCircle forum is at:

Duke LeJeune, AudioKinesis Loudspeakers

You can likely search back in time to read his earlier work on bipoles.

I used some of Duke's bipole work for some of my projects on bipoles here on diyaudio. His off set driver locations idea can lessen the around the cabinet resonance for bipole speakers.

Last edited by Jim Griffin; 21st October 2016 at 12:17 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 21st October 2016, 01:05 AM   #10
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Why no bipole speakers ?
I was thinking that this Xmas season some experiments might be in order. If I were to go with a TC9FD, based on the positive results reported on this forum, for the full-range, which drier would be a good one to consider for the supporting woofer ? I'd prefer a small driver and accept that there will be limitations to SPL as I already have big speakers in the house this would be a challenge to achieve decent results in a smaller, stand mount, enclosure.


A mini DSP might allow some funky experiments with the bipole approach - I don't have a mini DSP but perhaps Santa will bring me some new toys.
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