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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

New SB Acoustics 3 way from Troels
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Old 15th January 2019, 09:29 PM   #121
Bassivus is offline Bassivus  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emynet View Post
Hi Bassivus,
are you able to draw a conclusion about the sound of your, beautifully made, speakers?
I have an interest in the design.


Thanks
Hello,

Speakers are now completely broken in and I can say it really takes a while. I feel like that curve is logarithmic From the beginning in matter of hours sound takes drastic changes but you have to be patient to get that every last bit. So...
Pros: Great coherence, tonality. I felt that mid is a bit recessed so I have paralleled resistor lowering the value 10% and it opened it just the right amount.
After a lot of trial and error in positioning I got a nice width and depth in soundstage but still not the best I have heard. I am experimenting on bypass caps and got some really great results, but it is still ongoing process. Top kit with Alumen caps was to expensive for me but I guess it is worth to have at least on tweeter. Copper foil 0,1uF bypass cap gave me a great satisfaction.
I believe phase responses are really taken care(some cons read latter), as in my reference track for it Roger Waters album "Amused to Death" track "Ballad of Bill Hubbard" the dogs in the beginning of track are barking from my back right and the radio is on my left, completely out of reality space, almost like that I'm listening to surround.
This speakers are definitively a keeper but I feel there is still place for improvement with finetuninng XO.

Cons: It is a big speaker and that 10 inch bass needs SPACE! I have them in my living room of app. 22sqm but I find it small for them. I had really big 65Hz peaks. I have tried DSP via Roon Player but as all its a compromise. At this moment I'm listening with port stuffed with small amount of fluffed damping stuff. I'm planning to try putting some L pad to control the room gain on bass. Although 22sqm is not really small I am convinced that I need at least 1,5m Longer room to get a really good soundstage and less peaks in bass region. I would also mention in cons that the 14 deg. panel tilt has some cons that you can hear in stand up sit down test. It surely does the time alignment but in room it makes placement even harder. Also I'm measuring some bump in 5k region that is caused by sharp baffle edges, which was my unwilling compromise with craftsman that did the finish for me.
And lastly I have to say I'm disappointed how I literally got "kicked in butt" by Troels after I politely asked if I could have his in-cabinet-driver-measurements, so I could try fine tuning crossover for my room and taste. He got really mad and called me arrogant for even asking... so don't expect to get any help there.

If you wish to have my building plans and CNC files please contact me on PM

Cheers

Last edited by Bassivus; 15th January 2019 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 02:03 AM   #122
fab is online now fab  Canada
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New SB Acoustics 3 way from Troels
Hello Bassivus
Thanks for your comments on the SBA-10.
I got mine completed after more than one year. The cabinet was done mostly by some friends of mine. This is the more simple version of the cabinets.
After more than about 400 hours of listening I find that the speaker has great qualities but like you I can hear a bump in maybe the same frequency region (although not measured). It is more evident on rock music style where these frequency are more dominant. Listening to jazz or soft music is ok though.

Like you I have quit discussing with Troels based on his negative response about the issue I have.
I did not want to do that but since I also listen a lot to progressive rock music I had to try to fix the issue. I have tried to play with some simple fix to the hi frequency crossover but still not perfect to me...
I have also level 2 crossover. If you can pm me on your crossover mod done or else it would be appreciated.
Thanks
Fab
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Last edited by fab; 18th January 2019 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 07:00 AM   #123
denibeni is online now denibeni  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fab View Post
After more than about 400 hours of listening I find that the speaker has great qualities but like you I can hear a bump in maybe the same frequency region (although not measured).
I have a hypothesis that the high frequency problem with this speaker may be due to the very low crossover frequency, which is also low sloped.

A 1-inch dome without a waveguide can not be connected to a 6-inch mid so that there is no difference in directivity, no matter how low you want to cross, but in this direction you can easily reach the limits of the tweeter's capabilities, which is not surprisingly their lower end, where the non-linearities are high without exception, producing harmonic and other distortions.
Maybe you can hear that too, plus an usual lower treble bloom in the power response due to low directivity of the tweeter in this region.

The Satori mid is good to 3kHz, so I think the crossing point would be much better between say 2.5-3kHz.
I write this without hearing this speaker, so treat this comment in this way.

Denes
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Old 18th January 2019, 08:05 AM   #124
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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I'd like to see those measurements, gated if possible. Also, i'd like to see measurements to at least 60 degrees off axis in 10 degree increments just to make sure the problem is diffraction. If that's the problem* it'll disappear off axis.

*Problem that is diffraction related with tweeters mounted on the flat baffle is usually dip on axis, not peak.

Last edited by Zvu; 18th January 2019 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 08:30 AM   #125
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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TG's simulation shows that obviously baffle effect and directivity of midrange have not been compensated - look at mid's response. In result, even on-axis response drops down just above 1kHz. Timing is propably ok because of tilted baffle.

Sadly I don't know how to fix that in a passive xo, but I guess that just smaller serial L3 value first, then different shunt?

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Last edited by Juhazi; 18th January 2019 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:46 PM   #126
Bassivus is offline Bassivus  Serbia
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Hello everybody!

I believe this discussion has got a bit off track. I have stated that I hear and measure some issues around 6kHz region but in my case it is minor.
Since I don't own anechoic chamber I can not tell for sure where it comes from. Since TG SBA10 share many similarities with JB Kairos 3way and after reading JB Kairos write-up showing baffle bump at 1.2K with paralell with 9" baffle (which he cleverly used to compensate mid dip in that region), I came to conclusion it could come from much narrower SBA baffle. Also TG has some rounding on edges there. I did some simulations in Virtuix cad2 and it confirmed it...when rounded edges are simulated no problem, that's all.
I have to say that I find that bump one of the least significant problems. Much bigger problem is room gain from that 10" bass.
I will probably do some rounding and it will resolve this issue...

I also want to state that despite what I commented on cons and I might left the impression it's bad, it's not. it IS A GOOD speaker after all. But in DIY we like to play arond stuff. Don't we?
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:26 PM   #127
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Hi, 6kHz might sound hard because of recessed lower treble... Typically directivity is minimal around 6-8kHz too in this kind of baffles.

I use that same SB29NRX-75 woofer too, but in sealed box and some eq. Your room looks narrow, and if walls are brick, there is lots of boost. Easy to try blocked BR port! At my daughter's apartment 20Hz gets boosted from a lateral mode! Check the latest measurements in the gallery!
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:38 PM   #128
ggetzoff is offline ggetzoff  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denibeni View Post
I have a hypothesis that the high frequency problem with this speaker may be due to the very low crossover frequency, which is also low sloped.

A 1-inch dome without a waveguide can not be connected to a 6-inch mid so that there is no difference in directivity, no matter how low you want to cross, but in this direction you can easily reach the limits of the tweeter's capabilities, which is not surprisingly their lower end, where the non-linearities are high without exception, producing harmonic and other distortions.
Maybe you can hear that too, plus an usual lower treble bloom in the power response due to low directivity of the tweeter in this region.

The Satori mid is good to 3kHz, so I think the crossing point would be much better between say 2.5-3kHz.
I write this without hearing this speaker, so treat this comment in this way.

Denes

I just analyzed this design using PCD ( I captured FRD and ZMA from Troels measurements) and there are two problems with this crossover:

1. 1600Hz is too low for the total (acoustical+electrical) transfer function
2. Even those this is a high bandwidth tweeter, the output must taper much more rapidly on the leading edge or distortion will rise dramatically (audible)

Therefore I agree with you, ~2,500 is great place to start and that is what I have been working on: 1st order electrical on the woofer, 3 order electrical on the tweeter.

Troels is welcome to come on the forum and challenge me, but he can't challenge the problems that those who have built it are having.

Cheers,

Greg
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Old 19th January 2019, 08:28 PM   #129
Bassivus is offline Bassivus  Serbia
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Default SBA10 sound demo

Here is the sound demo of my system:

SBA10 Sound Demo by Bassivus | Free Listening on SoundCloud

It was recorded with cheap Tascam DR-05 and only alterations done is cutting tracks so that I don't violate copyrights.

It's fairly long so if you don't like the track skip, there is plenty.
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Old 20th January 2019, 05:44 AM   #130
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggetzoff View Post
I just analyzed this design using PCD ( I captured FRD and ZMA from Troels measurements) and there are two problems with this crossover:

1. 1600Hz is too low for the total (acoustical+electrical) transfer function
2. Even those this is a high bandwidth tweeter, the output must taper much more rapidly on the leading edge or distortion will rise dramatically (audible)

Therefore I agree with you, ~2,500 is great place to start and that is what I have been working on: 1st order electrical on the woofer, 3 order electrical on the tweeter.

Troels is welcome to come on the forum and challenge me, but he can't challenge the problems that those who have built it are having.

Cheers,

Greg
I concur. If your music is single instrument at low volumes, you might get away with it. But a lot of high energy 1-3KHz records played at volume will stress a 1" dome tweeter at a sub 2KHz XO - especially low order slope.

As you turn the music up - you'll hear your treble compress / dynamics go.
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